Chieftain and Challenger

[rickshaw]

That's interesting, it looks like they swapped the front to the back (or vise versa).  Can the transmission run in reverse just like it does in forward motion on the Centurion ? or would it have a new transmission ?

It has a new transmission, gearbox, engine and hull.  Basically all that remains of the original vehicle is the chassis.   It is an original and interesting use of old tank chassis but one has to wonder at the economics of it.  Now, if it was a new build vehicle, it would be possible to design this sort of utility in, as the Israelis did with the Merkava, from the very beginning and have a the engine in the front and a large area behind it where you could choose either an MBT turret or an APC compartment or a SPG or a...

Is the powerpack new to the Temsah, or is it the the "old" upgraded powerpack fitted to the donor Tariqs (Centrurions) before conversion?

Both are listed as utilising the AVDS-1790.  I suspect I was wrong to suggest it was a new engine.  More likely an upgraded one, coupled to a new transmission and gearbox.

If anybody wants more info on the Temsah then I'd suggest trying http://www.military-today.com/apc/temsah.htm

[apophenia]

Yes, as rickshaw suggests, it's unlikely that these are 'new' engines -- the Continental AVDS-1790 being an M-60 vintage V12. The Temsahs and Tariq share upgraded Centurion running gear components - final drives, tracks, and suspension in the case of the Temsah.

Only XDM-P1 (experimental demonstrator model - 1st prototype) used a modified Centurion hull. The P2 and P3 (and planned production models) have entirely new hulls. BTW, South Africa's MDB (Mechanology Design Bureau) was involved in the design of both the Temsah (beginning as the AB14 Goliath) and the Falcon turret.

[Army of One]

Further to my last idea, does anyone know what the arrangement is for the Marksman Turret - specifically re sensors and the like.  Looking at the Marksman head on, I note the large blank area (see below) - I assume this is fitted with something but I'm not sure what.




Regards,

Greg

I've seen this vehicle at the War and Peace show a few times...I'm sure its in the arena in the first pic....wierd looking...the turret almost looks to big for the chassis. I think this vehicle is privately owned. As to the thread...sorry I got nothing constructive to add...I do like tanks....kit bashed an old Tamiya 1/35 Merkava 1 for a friend who wanted a futuristic tank for his warhammer 40,000 space marine chapter...long time ago though

[John1964]

Here's the stealthy Chieftain at Bovington Tank Fest this year. I was sure I got some front shots, but can I find 'em...?



Oh, and I also thought I'd throw in this bit of armour-porn. Nowhere else in the world will you see this:

Was this an official project or someones what if?

[apophenia]

Was this an official project or someones what if?

A restoration by The Tank Museum, Bovington. Love those skirts on the Chieftain!

[Aircav]

It's amazing what you can find on the while looking for something else
http://www.scribd.com/doc/105576348/1983-2350-P-100-201-Tank-Combat-120mm-Gun-Challenger-Part-1-Automotive-Systems

[Weaver]

The latest UK defence review has cut the number of Chally 2s being updated to Chally 3 standard, so that begs the question of what happens to the spare hulls? In real life pound-to-a-penny they just get used for spare parts, but in whif-world, who knows?

My immediate thoughts are:

1. They get converted into Israeli-style very heavy APCs with fixed superstructures.

2. There seems to be a renewed interest in tactical air-defence systems, so maybe they get fitted with AAA gun system. The Marconi Marksman seems an obvious choice if it can be resurrected, but like all these things, the limitation is effective range vs helo/drone-launched ATGWs. That might suggest the Oto-Melara 76mm, which has been touted for years as a land-based system, but with no takers so far.

[Gondor]

The latest UK defence review has cut the number of Chally 2s being updated to Chally 3 standard, so that begs the question of what happens to the spare hulls? In real life pound-to-a-penny they just get used for spare parts, but in whif-world, who knows?

My immediate thoughts are:

1. They get converted into Israeli-style very heavy APCs with fixed superstructures.

2. There seems to be a renewed interest in tactical air-defence systems, so maybe they get fitted with AAA gun system. The Marconi Marksman seems an obvious choice if it can be resurrected, but like all these things, the limitation is effective range vs helo/drone-launched ATGWs. That might suggest the Oto-Melara 76mm, which has been touted for years as a land-based system, but with no takers so far.

Probably better to mount a version of the CAMM system.

Gondor

[Weaver]

The latest UK defence review has cut the number of Chally 2s being updated to Chally 3 standard, so that begs the question of what happens to the spare hulls? In real life pound-to-a-penny they just get used for spare parts, but in whif-world, who knows?

My immediate thoughts are:

1. They get converted into Israeli-style very heavy APCs with fixed superstructures.

2. There seems to be a renewed interest in tactical air-defence systems, so maybe they get fitted with AAA gun system. The Marconi Marksman seems an obvious choice if it can be resurrected, but like all these things, the limitation is effective range vs helo/drone-launched ATGWs. That might suggest the Oto-Melara 76mm, which has been touted for years as a land-based system, but with no takers so far.

Probably better to mount a version of the CAMM system.

Gondor

Yes, but that doesn't need a 50-ton tracked chassis. The only think I can think of that justifies the chassis for stability is a gun system with a fair recoil.

[rickshaw]

The latest UK defence review has cut the number of Chally 2s being updated to Chally 3 standard, so that begs the question of what happens to the spare hulls? In real life pound-to-a-penny they just get used for spare parts, but in whif-world, who knows?

My immediate thoughts are:

1. They get converted into Israeli-style very heavy APCs with fixed superstructures.

2. There seems to be a renewed interest in tactical air-defence systems, so maybe they get fitted with AAA gun system. The Marconi Marksman seems an obvious choice if it can be resurrected, but like all these things, the limitation is effective range vs helo/drone-launched ATGWs. That might suggest the Oto-Melara 76mm, which has been touted for years as a land-based system, but with no takers so far.

Probably better to mount a version of the CAMM system.

Gondor

Yes, but that doesn't need a 50-ton tracked chassis. The only think I can think of that justifies the chassis for stability is a gun system with a fair recoil.

Not much justifies the use of an MBT hull, except another MBT.  If it had most it's armour removed, it could fit a fair number of missiles.  If it was to be turned into an APC, the Jordanians showed the way with their Centurion conversion, the Kemsah.  They reversed the vehicle and placed a new ramp for the passangers in what was the front glacis plate.

[Weaver]

The latest UK defence review has cut the number of Chally 2s being updated to Chally 3 standard, so that begs the question of what happens to the spare hulls? In real life pound-to-a-penny they just get used for spare parts, but in whif-world, who knows?

My immediate thoughts are:

1. They get converted into Israeli-style very heavy APCs with fixed superstructures.

2. There seems to be a renewed interest in tactical air-defence systems, so maybe they get fitted with AAA gun system. The Marconi Marksman seems an obvious choice if it can be resurrected, but like all these things, the limitation is effective range vs helo/drone-launched ATGWs. That might suggest the Oto-Melara 76mm, which has been touted for years as a land-based system, but with no takers so far.

Probably better to mount a version of the CAMM system.

Gondor

Yes, but that doesn't need a 50-ton tracked chassis. The only think I can think of that justifies the chassis for stability is a gun system with a fair recoil.

Not much justifies the use of an MBT hull, except another MBT.  If it had most it's armour removed, it could fit a fair number of missiles.  If it was to be turned into an APC, the Jordanians showed the way with their Centurion conversion, the Kemsah.  They reversed the vehicle and placed a new ramp for the passangers in what was the front glacis plate.

Since the hulls are already paid for, the only thing that needs to be justified is the conversion cost, weight and logistics so the whatever-it-is only really works if you're shipping Chally 3s around anyway.

The trouble with the Jordanian Temsah was that it was such an extensive conversion that not even Jordan could afford to buy it. The most elaborate tank-to-pure-APC conversion that went into service was the Israeli Achzarit, which was a T-55 hull with a new, narrower engine that allowed a passage and ramp to the rear. What I was thinking of in my original post though, were the much less ambitions Israeli Centurion conversions, the Nakpadon and the Nagmachon. These are just armoured boxes in place of the turret, and are used for specialist roles such as urban combat and carrying engineering teams.

Another option, if the British Army saw a need for it, would be a Russian BMPT-style tank-escort/urban combat vehicle.

[zenrat]

It doesn't have to be complicated...

[Pellson]

Just out of curiosity - what included in the Challenger 3 conversion? Anything external?

[Logan Hartke]

I was reading recently about difficulties with Chieftain reliability and then separately was reminded of the FV4201/T95 studies, and I realized that if the T95/FV4201 combination was technically possible, then so too would a Chieftain turret on an M60 hull. I realized that I hadn't actually seen one of those mocked up before, so I decided to take some of the profiles from Tank Encyclopedia and try my hand at it. I did my best to scale these accurately, so I hope you all find them interesting, at least.



M60 Chieftain early production



M60 Chieftain circa 1970s NATO



M60 Chieftain circa 1980s NATO



M60 Chieftain export

Anyway, I hope these prove interesting to some as a quick evening mockup.

Cheers,

Logan

[Old Wombat]