Crusader and Tomcat...

[Archibald]

In 1958, the Crusader III lost to the Phantom II. Vought was in trouble, because the basic Crusader was now sightly outdated (it had only AIM-9 capability, and its
J-57 engine prevented it to reach mach2).
So, after the defeat of the Crusader III, Vought decided to replae the standard Crusader by another, closer Crusader derivative, the Crusader IV.

Changes were less important than in the Crusader III; in fact the IV was re-engined with a J-79 similar to the F-104 and Super Tiger. More, Sparrow capability was added.
A Crusader F-8C was taken out of the production line and heavily modified. It flew on 25th march 1960. One month later, it recahed mach 2.31 without problems!

At the beginning, Vought had no orders, but the situation quickly changed. In a tense period of the cold war, Kennedy decided to refit all the Essex carriers. They entered a SLEP program, to extend their lives up to the 80's.
The air group consisted of Skyhawks and Crusaders in their latest versions... these plane were sufficiently lighter to land on the small Essex, contrarily to the heavier Phantoms, Intruders and the like.  
The Crusader IV was selected. 300 were bought by the Navy.
Later, another order for the Crusader IV come from the French navy (in 1965).
(to be continued)  

[Archibald]

In 1965, the FAA manifested its interest for the Crusader. But it was no longer interested by the Crusader IV... and vought admited that even the Crusader IV needed a complement. A multirole, heavier Crusader was set up, the Crusader V.  
It was a two seat, multirole fighter with a bigger wing. Of course, the VI wing was deleted. An allison TF-41 engine rated at 24000 Ibs of thrust  was adopted. The FAA bought 80 of them.
At the time, the Crusader II and IV were brilliant in Vietnam, killing dozens of MiGs.  

[Archibald]

some Tomcat whatifs...
In 1966, the F-111B and its engine, the TF-30 were in serious trouble. The plane was a disaster, and the engine, too. It lacked of power (8500 kgp for a 30 tons+ plane) was prone to stalling and the like. But Mc Namara still defended its multirole plane, the F-111.. which in reality was good for nothing! Fed up and angried with this situation, the US Navy plotted to kill the F-111B. These efforts ended in triumph when congress cut funding for the program right from the end of 1966. The F-111B was dead... but the Tomcat was coming.
The VF-X program was speed up, but a serious question arose : what engine?  the TF-30 was dead (whithout regrets). But on the other side of the Atlantic, SNECMA had produced a much improved version, the TF-306E. It had much more power, and stall problems had disapeared. First flight of the VF-X was now planed for spring 1969, so a deal with the French have to be found quickly...
The problem solved itself in july 1968, when the French decided to get ride of the TF-306E and develop their own M-53 turbofan. They agree to sold all the TF-306E stuff to P&W, including the Mirage F-2 testbed! the deal was concluded in late 1968, and the Mirage F-2 flew at Edwards AFB in winter 1968.
The VF-X, now named F-14 Tomcat flew for the first time in April 1969. First prototype avoided destruction when the pilots noticed that hydraulics was leaking on the ground. Titanium ducts replaced the steel one.
Thanks to the TF-306, the Tomcat was developed in just 3 years, which means it entered service in Spring 1972, for Linebacker II  B)

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

Very interesting!!
A Tomcat A with good engine and a BVR-able Crusader could have been real killers!!  

[Archibald]

Arrete de lire dans mes pensées lol !!!
I talked various times with Elmayerle about the TF-41 (American/Allison spey) and TF-306E (TF-30 much improved by SNECMA, for the VTOL Mirage III, Mirage F-2/3 and G). These two engines were much better than the crappy TF-30!

I think about another thing : why not a kind of tomcat in the early 60's ?
- VG wing was ready (XF-10F jaguar, X-5)
- J-75 engines (around 10 tons of thrust, like the TF-30)
- AN/ASG-18 + AIM-47 falcon
A kind of Tomcat ancestor, just  for the fun!

So the Tomcat participate Linebacker II, Ie the last air campaign of the Vietnam war! Between march 1972 and January 1973, Tomcats of the VF-41 Black Ace protected the Phantoms against Migs, killing some of their adversaries at 80km with their Phoenix! One Tomcat was damaged by a SAM but limped back to the Constellation.
The F-14A had TF-306E, but the TF-41 of the Crusader V had aparently much growth potential, so a F-14B variant was offered with it but the Navy rejected it, satisfied with the A.
P&W gave back the Mirage F-2 testbed in 1971. The plane was send to Le bourget museum...still with its beautiful testbed camo (white with blue strips and red markings).  

[elmayerle]

I think about another thing : why not a kind of tomcat in the early 60's ?
- VG wing was ready (XF-10F jaguar, X-5)
- J-75 engines (around 10 tons of thrust, like the TF-30)
- AN/ASG-18 + AIM-47 falcon
A kind of Tomcat ancestor, just for the fun!

Actually, the v-g wings of the X-5 and XF10F were rather more complicated than necessary for a production combat aircraft, it was only about 1960 or 1961 that the wind tunnel testing that verified the correct pivot location rather than a complicated pivot and translate mechanism (as previously used to maintain stability and control) was completed and understood.  You could, conceiveably, had  something similar to the Tomcat in the early 1960s with the J75, but it would've been rather heavier and not as much of a dogfighter.  Compare the weight differences between the J75 and a comparable F110 or F100  

[Archibald]

rather heavier and not as much of a dogfighter

Sure! The aim of progress is to make things simpler and lighter
I thought that had the F-111B killed 2 years earlier (1966) and had the first tomcat not crashed (they lost 6 months, december 1970 / may 1971) the F-14 could have been in service much earlier no? And even participate to the last vietnam campain... After all the AWG-9 was ready from 1966 no?
concerning the TF-306, it was also ready around 1967... could the VF-X program been speeded?  

[elmayerle]

rather heavier and not as much of a dogfighter

Sure! The aim of progress is to make things simpler and lighter
I thought that had the F-111B killed 2 years earlier (1966) and had the first tomcat not crashed (they lost 6 months, december 1970 / may 1971) the F-14 could have been in service much earlier no? And even participate to the last vietnam campain... After all the AWG-9 was ready from 1966 no?
concerning the TF-306, it was also ready around 1967... could the VF-X program been speeded?

Absent the crash due to hydraulic fluid loss and with the availability of the TF306, I see now reason why the development of the Tomcat could not have been speeded up.  Most of the basic development work on the AWG-9 and AIM-54 to have those in service and a better engine would only help matters.  For that matter, I can see the USAF re-engining F-111s with the TF306.

[Archibald]

cool  B) It's hard finding infos on the TF-306E here in France... I'm asking if a comparison bvetween the two (TF-30 and TF-306E) would be possible.. have you some datas performances?
I have difficulties understanding what were exactly the TF-104 and TF-106 engines compared to the TF-30. I only heard about this engine in French Mirages, when the F-111 started with the TF-30 itself... (Of course its because it was much heavier). the americans were not interested by the TF-104 or TF-106? Are these engines  a peculiar development by SNECMA, like the TF-306E ?  

[elmayerle]

The basic P&W designation for the TF30 is the JTF10, hence the early developments of the design by SNECMA were the TF104 and TF106.  The fully developed SNECMA version built off the TF30 designation as the TF306.

I'll have to see if I can find comparative information, I used to have it but have no idea where that information is now.  Anyone have access to back issues inf JAWA?

[elmayerle]

Regarding the Crusader V: Not so much a bigger wing as, with the removal of the extra structure and systems required for the Variable-Incidence feature, LERX (like those later applied to the A-7F) could be added while the wing structure was upgraded to allow three hardpoints per side instead of the earlier  one per side.

[Archibald]

I made this thread because I consider that on one hand, were the Tomcat and
F-111 with a crappy engine, the TF-30; on the other hand, the TF-306E and
TF-41 (reheated) were much better, available in time, but not used...this sound a rather illogical situation (the kind we like to "correct" here   ).

Same thing for the Crusader : the III ended the serie, leaving Vought without a modern fighter (I mean, modern engine+ sparrow) in the 60's. When one see the result obtained by the Crusader in vietnam in 1967...Things ended sadly for the firm because of that...


Concerning the Crusader IV and V, I thought about an armement of four AIM-9 and 2 Sparrow, but I don't know really were to place it... maybe the four AIM-9 stay under the cockpit flancs, and the two AIM-7 underwing? with two drop tanks, two hardpoints are still available (for ECM pods, like the Mirage F-1 ?)
LERX are a nice idea...

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

For the F-8 Crusader IV and V, you could put at least 3 Sparrow under the fuselage, like on the Crusader III, 4 Sidewinder on the flancs like on the Crusader I and probably 4 Sparrows (or 2 Sparrow and 2 belly tanks) under the wings!!
After all, the Crusader I had 2 pylons under the wings for the bombs, so why not adding 2 other pylons?? (A moins qu'il n'y en ai 4 sous le Crusader I, mais je n'en ai jamais vu plus de 2)

It allows some typical configurations for the Crusader V:
-3 X AIM-7 for Mach 2,85 missions
-7 X AIM-7 for Mach 2,5 missions
-7 X AIM-7 + 4 AIM-9 + 2 tanks for Mach 0,95 patrols + Mach 2,3 interceptions
...well, something like this

[Archibald]

Nice! With such number of AAM, a squadron can cripple half of the NVAF (North Vietnam Air Force) !!!
Well, beware of the drag!! But I like the last configuration

7 X AIM-7 + 4 AIM-9 + 2 tanks for Mach 0,95 patrols + Mach 2,3 interceptions

I never thought that you could put so much AAMs in one Crusader    

[Cartman]

French engined Tomcats to see combat in Vietnam would certainly have altered the present as we know it.

The biggest malady of the F-14 are those god awful TF30 engines.  Those engines have destroyed more Tomcats than enemy fire and other unrelated powerplant problems combined!

The F-14 Tomcat as we know it was shaped from the air war experience in Vietnam.  Lessons learned were that an internal gun is still relevant and that missles alone is a mistake.  Another is that dogfighting skills is still essential and that the fighter needs to be agile (high thrust to weight ratio for example).  This lead to the bubble canopy for all around visibility.

Had the moronic F-111B had been killed too soon, the above mentioned design changes to the Navy's VFX might not have been implemented.  A different F-14 without a internal gun, no bubble canopy, and no agility.  This aircraft might have just been a Phantom with swing wings.

However, I do recall Grumman doing preliminary work to replace the F-111B since it was obvious to them that F-111B project would never work.  Given the timing of the F-111B's demise and the lessons of Vietnam are in sync, a combat proven F-14 in Vietnam would certainly ensure a large production order and improved variants.  What is vital that these French engines become the standard powerplant.

Another likelyhood, is that USAF buys F-14s instead of developing the F-4E Phantom that comes with a gun.  Tomcats in both USN and USAF service with reliable high thrust engines and the wide use of the AWG-9/Phoenix (hopefully the rules of engagement is relaxed to permit BVR shoot'em in their face attacks) would annhilate the North Vietnamese Air Force.  

The F-4 Phantom becomes the primary bomber, taking over the F-105 Thunderchief.  USAF Tomcats takes the role of chief air superiority fighter.  The USMC would likely do the same, but might use their Tomcat in the ground support role.  The Navy would certainly withdrawl their F-4B aircraft and replace them with Tomcats.  The A-6 Intruder and A-4 Skyhawk would be the primary carrier based aircraft.

The Air Force probably will not find it necessary to procure the A-7 Corsair II, with the F-14 in service already.  It is also likely that the F-111 in USAF service would be limited and withdrawn if the F-14B with a terrain follow radar takes over the interdiction role.  This would have long term consequences that I will cover a little later.

The Grumman F-14 Tomcat might have become the TFX aircraft that McNamara always dreamed about, THAT ACTUALLY WORKED!

The F-4 Phantom production would have been curtailed sharply, while Tomcat orders are spiked.  The Tomcat still costs about four times as much for one F-4.
But with the fewer Phantoms and Avardvarks being bought, more Tomcats can be bought.  Since Grumman was a partner with General Dynamics in the F-111B project, its possible that GD would have even manufactured Tomcats for the Air Force.

With the F-14 Tomcat shooting down MiGs with imputiny and bombing targets with precision, and with joint service adoption, there would be long term consequences.

The Air Force FX never sees the light of day.  With the F-14 already in full production, proven in combat, and already in Air Force service, the FX is not needed.  As a result the F-15 Eagle as we know it, never becomes a reality.  The F-111 Avarvark is not procured anymore since the versatile Tomcat with TFR is successful in the interdiction role.  Another advantage is that the "Bombcat" can shoot down MiGs and literally fight its way in and out.  This is the role the F-15E strike eagle does today.

The United Kingdom that orginally placed an order for the F-111K instead buys the F-14.  The Royal Navy (when it still had real carriers) flies the F-14 instead of Sprey engined Phantoms.  The Royal Air Force does likewise and as a result the MRCA program never sees the light of day.  There is no Tornado ADV.  West Germany  and Italy procure Tomcats in place of the MRCA.

Australia cancels its F-111 order and buys Tomcats.  With the F-14 Australia has a long range strike aircraft and jet fighter/interceptor all in one package.  Many nations friendly to the USA like Israel and unfortunatley even Iran buys the Tomcat.

With a large number of Tomcats in service, one begs the questions how the LWF competition might have been affected?  And whether to what degree the VFAX (the result being the F/A-18) been affected?  I have some suggestions to what might have occured.

The Navy could buy about four Phantoms for one Tomcat.  Double digit inflation would hurt Grumman's bottom line with their fixed price contract on the F-14.  And the FX never coming into fruitation, the Air Force could never realistically buy enough Tomcats and the Navy still needs to replace its aging Phantoms and Corsair IIs.  And the Navy concludes that it could never buy enough Tomcats either.

The F-16 would still win the Light Weight Fighter competition.  However with the USAF already operating another "saltwater airplane" again, there is bound to be political pressure on the Navy for quid pro quo to adopt the F-16.  As a result, Vought would building all the naval F-16 aircraft.

The Northrop YF-17 Cobra is forgotten, and the F/A-18 Hornet as we know it never comes to pass.

Lets pretend all this has come to pass.  There is no F-15 Eagle and there is no F/A-18 Hornet.  There is no Panvia Tornado.  What would the present be like?

I think the F-22 Raptor would still have been developed and the Air Force is finally getting a design of its own, vowing never to operate another "saltwater airplane" ever again.  Having to be forced to adopt the Phantom and Tomcat.

The JSF program would still have proceeded since the F-16 fleet is not getting younger and low observable design is the goal.

The Navy still bungled the  A-12 Avenger II and is eventually canned anyways.  At this time improved versions of the F-14 are already in service with long range strike capability.  The A-6F Super Intruder already killed out in favor of the A-12, the Navy simply fills the vacancy with more Tomcats.

With the successful record of the Tomcat, and the limitations of the carrier based F-16 being obviously noticeable, a navalized F-22 is deemed too expensive.  Instead Grumman is given the contract to develop the Tomcat 21.  The Tomcat 21 though looks like the F-14 might have warranted a new designation, but the Navy simply calls it the F/A-14E/F Super Tomcat instead.

The F/A-14E/F Super Tomcat would serve well within into the 21st Century along with the F-35B.