Hawker Hunter

[GeorgeC]

But...  the evolved Hunter lives.  The Hawk fitted into the niche very nicely, delivering everything its elder brother could - apart from the mighty broadside of Aden cannon shells.  All the bells and whistles are now available on the 100 and 200 series.

[Hobbes]

Harrier FA.2 style nose to accommodate a larger, more capable radar?

[NARSES2]

Refurbished ex RAF machines with Swing Wings as per the SU-17 for sale to developing countries ?

There were plans - TSR Joe sent me the plan view and I'll build her one day

Chris

[Archibald]

But...  the evolved Hunter lives.  The Hawk fitted into the niche very nicely, delivering everything its elder brother could - apart from the mighty broadside of Aden cannon shells.  All the bells and whistles are now available on the 100 and 200 series.

Hmmm the Hawk is one one best jet trainer ever, but that's the rpoblem - it's a trainer, not a combat aircraft. I mean, it is a bit limited in some areas if you compare it to the Hunter...    

Harrier FA.2 nose is a cool idea.
I've heard here that there was aftermarket spare  to change  Harrier FR.1 intio F/A2... apply them to a Revell Hunter kit    

[Mossie]

I think the Hunter has pretty much had a similar life to the A-4 except for the updates in the 70's.  It served into the 2000's & could still, IMHO, if someone was willing to do the work, although there's probably more recent aircraft that would fit the bill.

I've thought of two scenarios here, taking the standard Hunter.  Firstly, the Hunter carries on pretty much as it did in the real world, but the RAF don't take Buccaneer off the hands of the Royal Navy, instead preferring to update their Hunters to a more modern mud-mover.  No huge changes, mostly electronic with a few bumps & lumps on the outside, maybe a larger spine for avionics & a belly or wing root pack for extra fuel, maybe wingtip pods.  Can possibly mount LGB's etc.  Other air arms follow suit & it eeks a few extra years out of the Hunter, with them just leaving service now with some poorer countries.

Secondly, the RAF decides on a major upgrade to it's Hunter's in the 70's/early 80's, similar to Harrier II.  New wing, maybe with composites, up to date avionics & computers, upgrade to the Avon engine, LRMTS nose, maybe a true bubble canopy, wingtip launchers for self defence AAM's.  Transoinc capability.  It may have happened earlier for no-show of the Jaguar, later for no-show of the Harrier II, with changes depening on the timeline.  Again, others follow suit & order upgrades or new airframes, the Hunter may still possibly be in RAF & others service.

Kitnut has a theory that Gripen is a 'Super-Hunter' & I think he's on pretty good ground.  BAe did much of the design work & the fuselage has that Hunter shape.  So maybe it's still around & if the Gripen N & DK mods go ahead, the 'Hunter' may be a seriously capable aircraft for some time to come?

[GeorgeC]

Hmmm the Hawk is one one best jet trainer ever, but that's the rpoblem - it's a trainer, not a combat aircraft. I mean, it is a bit limited in some areas if you compare it to the Hunter...    

But...  the 70s trainer or the essentially new Mk 128 etc are not that divergeant in performance from a 50s fighter.  If you really need the final bits of transonic perfomance, buy a F5 or a Mach 2 fighter  Or use the afterburner version of the Adour  

[Archibald]

I think the Hunter has pretty much had a similar life to the A-4 except for the updates in the 70's.  It served into the 2000's & could still, IMHO, if someone was willing to do the work, although there's probably more recent aircraft that would fit the bill.

I've thought of two scenarios here, taking the standard Hunter.  Firstly, the Hunter carries on pretty much as it did in the real world, but the RAF don't take Buccaneer off the hands of the Royal Navy, instead preferring to update their Hunters to a more modern mud-mover.  No huge changes, mostly electronic with a few bumps & lumps on the outside, maybe a larger spine for avionics & a belly or wing root pack for extra fuel, maybe wingtip pods.  Can possibly mount LGB's etc.  Other air arms follow suit & it eeks a few extra years out of the Hunter, with them just leaving service now with some poorer countries.

Secondly, the RAF decides on a major upgrade to it's Hunter's in the 70's/early 80's, similar to Harrier II.  New wing, maybe with composites, up to date avionics & computers, upgrade to the Avon engine, LRMTS nose, maybe a true bubble canopy, wingtip launchers for self defence AAM's.  Transoinc capability.  It may have happened earlier for no-show of the Jaguar, later for no-show of the Harrier II, with changes depening on the timeline.  Again, others follow suit & order upgrades or new airframes, the Hunter may still possibly be in RAF & others service.

Kitnut has a theory that Gripen is a 'Super-Hunter' & I think he's on pretty good ground.  BAe did much of the design work & the fuselage has that Hunter shape.  So maybe it's still around & if the Gripen N & DK mods go ahead, the 'Hunter' may be a seriously capable aircraft for some time to come?

I prefer the 2nd scenario Mossie. Sounds good to me, I would prefer scrapping the Jaguar in favor of a Hunter II (the Hunter was not a design compromised between France, GB, attack and training   )

[ysi_maniac]

Refurbished ex RAF machines with Swing Wings as per the SU-17 for sale to developing countries ?

There were plans - TSR Joe sent me the plan view and I'll build her one day

Chris

I am interested too in this ugrade options.
Particularly, I am thinking in modern thin wings with LERX (prolonguing upper lip of current triangular intakes) a la F-18, I think also in F-18's nose.
Of course supersonic 1.6 match or so.
I like the RB-199 option.

Hi Chris,
Can I have the plan you mention?

Thanks a lot

[Zen]

You could modify the intakes much like they did on the DeltaII for the concord wing, that would permit a reasonable LERX.

Hawkers seemed keen on the use of wingtip pods, clearly the machine needed a better airbrake, and perhaps one could take the cost to alter the belly somewhat for more fuel.

That said Hawkers flew a 'area ruled' Hunter if I reccal, which would give a lot more room to play with.

Cut two of the ADEN out for more space too.

[kitnut617]

I've mentioned a couple of times in other threads, there is an 'evolved' Hunter, it's called a Gripen.  I've found by comparing a Hunter to a Gripen the fuselage is very similar, besides, some of the design crew came from BAe when the P.106 and P.112 was halted.  I've alway thought after reading Tony Butler's BSP-Fighters that these two paper prototypes were a super-Hunter of sorts.

But you could take a nose from the Gripen and add it to a Hunter to give you a different radar nose, this part of the fuselage is uncannily similar. Even add the intake trunks from the Gripen instead of the leading edge intakes.

Robert

[Daryl J.]

Could retention of the airframe forced avionics manufacturers to miniaturise the electronics much more soon and even more than they have to date?

The Hunter/Gripen connection is interesting as is the F-5/Hornet.

If the Hunter evolved into a composite winged aircraft, perhaps true ogival surfaces could have been attached or optimised for ground attack, eh?


Daryl J.

[elmayerle]

An engine replacement is possible, perhaps a Spey?

Not much room in the nose for radar, gun ranging only if memory serves. But you might squeeze a IR sensor up there instead.

Sidewinder was fitted by the Swiss.

Wingtip pods either for fuel or ECM, maybe one has a small laser designator?

Swift made a better attack machine.

Engine change would depend on when you were doing it, though a Spey is just too big.  For the 1970s, you might look at replacing the Avon with a J79, though ISTR that you'd need extra cooling scoops since a J79 runs hotter.  Later on, you could probably drop a F404 in, though the weight & ballance concerns would be there.  As far as fitting a radar, there were plenty of schemes for radar noses that'd fit a modern radar nicely (say a relative of the FIAR radar fitted to Pakistani F-7?).  For ground-pounding, though, it'd probably help if you re-winged them with wings fitted with another stores hardpoint on each side or, for tankage or small stores, on the wingtip.  You might also want to see if you could do a modular fuselage mod to add the three foot extension at the fuselage splice that the CFS suggested.

[NARSES2]

Hi Chris,
Can I have the plan you mention?

Thanks a lot

I can't find it just now I'm afraid - but if you PM TSR Joe he will point you to where it is on his site

Chris

[Hobbes]

Could retention of the airframe forced avionics manufacturers to miniaturise the electronics much more soon and even more than they have to date?

Not really. Miniaturisation was driven by the components available. As smaller components became available (first discrete semiconductors, then integrated circuits), they were used by the aviation industry. I doubt even an industry as large (and wealthy) as that would have been able to speed up the process much.  

[ysi_maniac]

Thinking on P.1083 as it is described here http://www.vectorsite.net/avhunt_1.html with afterburning Avon.

To be done from Airfix FGA.9.

Would it need major fuselage changes or just some cooling scoops?

BTW: pointed nose already added

Thanks,
Carlos.