Mustang: F-51, A-36, F-82, Cavalier, and Piper PA-48 Enforcer

[Ed S]

Why on earth the Piper Enforcer would be a good idea now when it wasn't 30 years ago baffles me! Terrible forward view being one of the issues I recall.
The Bronco is another matter though...

Van

I'm not sure the Enforcer was a "bad" idea at the time.  It was just an "unpopular" idea with the USAF general staff who were far more interested in big fast missile carrying fighters and didn't want the "embarassment" of having a propeller driven tail dragger in the USAF.  And at the time, their limited interest in CAS was taken up with the A-10 and they didn't want to spend money on the Enforcer.  The Enforcer is comparable to the others (Super Tucano, AT-6, OV-10) in performance with a great weapons capability.

What's interesting about this is that the US military is relearning the lessons it had to relearn in Korea, Vietnam, and other small wars.  Basically, big fast jets are not that good at CAS.   Smaller a/c with decent armament, good manuverability at speeds under 400knots, reasonable endurance and capable of forward basing offer a better solution.

Ed

[van883]

Why on earth the Piper Enforcer would be a good idea now when it wasn't 30 years ago baffles me! Terrible forward view being one of the issues I recall.
The Bronco is another matter though...

Van

I'm not sure the Enforcer was a "bad" idea at the time.  It was just an "unpopular" idea with the USAF general staff who were far more interested in big fast missile carrying fighters and didn't want the "embarassment" of having a propeller driven tail dragger in the USAF.  And at the time, their limited interest in CAS was taken up with the A-10 and they didn't want to spend money on the Enforcer.  The Enforcer is comparable to the others (Super Tucano, AT-6, OV-10) in performance with a great weapons capability.

What's interesting about this is that the US military is relearning the lessons it had to relearn in Korea, Vietnam, and other small wars.  Basically, big fast jets are not that good at CAS.   Smaller a/c with decent armament, good manuverability at speeds under 400knots, reasonable endurance and capable of forward basing offer a better solution.

Ed

Don't get me wrong the romantic in me likes the Enforcer-but it is a 40 year old design based on a 65 year old one. Also I am sure I read that pilots complained that they couldn't see forward and down due the placement of the cockpit and VERY long nose (a bit like a Firebrand). If we have to look backwards then a Skyhawk would be good....or a (Gos)Hawk

[Ed S]

What's interesting about this is that the US military is relearning the lessons it had to relearn in Korea, Vietnam, and other small wars.  Basically, big fast jets are not that good at CAS.   Smaller a/c with decent armament, good manuverability at speeds under 400knots, reasonable endurance and capable of forward basing offer a better solution.

Ed

Don't get me wrong the romantic in me likes the Enforcer-but it is a 40 year old design based on a 65 year old one. Also I am sure I read that pilots complained that they couldn't see forward and down due the placement of the cockpit and VERY long nose (a bit like a Firebrand). If we have to look backwards then a Skyhawk would be good....

Let's consider that the OV-10 is an almost 50 year old design.  The Tucano and AT-6 basic design goes back at least 30 years.  Let's face it, subsonic aerodynamics haven't changed much in that time frame.  I'm sure that each of these aricraft have their strong points and weak points and they should be taken into consideration in the selection, forward visibility being just one factor.  I just don't think that age discrimination (  ) is the way to chose.  As to the A-4, it is still a fast jet and while better than most supersonic fighters, it still isn't as manuverable at low speeds at these other competitors.

Ed

[Weaver]

Shouldn't that be Pilatus PC-9? The PC-6 is the Turbo-Porter...

[elmayerle]

I'd add the M-346 to that short list given its kinship to the Yak-130.  That's going to be a most interesting competition.

[elmayerle]

I'd add the M-346 to that short list given its kinship to the Yak-130.  That's going to be a most interesting competition.

The relationship to a Russian type is not going to affect anything in this competition. It's an Italian plane. What might give it problems is that it's still in development. It hardly has anything in common with the Yak, apart from the looks.

On the other hand, Aermacchi has a good post-war record of turning out excellent aircraft in this category (MB.326, MB.3339), so that'll help them.

[GTX]

Practicality - who cares!  Maybe a shut off for the radiator intake during water-borne periods?



Regards.

Greg

[famvburg]

     Why would you shut off the radiator intake? If you did, how would you keep it from running hot? IIRC, Mustangs didn't/don't like ground running as it is. A friend who used to own & fly one in the early '70s said that at some airshows, in the heat of the summer, he'd have to get behind another a/c, like a T-6 or Corsair, so it would help move air through the radiator. I know it's a WhIf, but.....................

Practicality - who cares!  Maybe a shut off for the radiator intake during water-borne periods?



Regards.

Greg

[GTX]

I thought massed water ingestion might cause trouble on takeoff etc.

Regards,

Greg

[NARSES2]

I thought massed water ingestion might cause trouble on takeoff etc.

Regards,

Greg

As well as the fines for fishing out of season 

Seriously Spitfire floatplanes still had underwing radiators and I think there were some italian racers with the radiators in the float supports, so would it actually be a practical problem ? Nice drawing by the way 

[rickshaw]

I thought massed water ingestion might cause trouble on takeoff etc.

Regards,

Greg

As well as the fines for fishing out of season 

Seriously Spitfire floatplanes still had underwing radiators and I think there were some italian racers with the radiators in the float supports, so would it actually be a practical problem ? Nice drawing by the way 

All depends on the float design.  If the float is designed to make the spray go sideways, rather than up, it makes sure that little water goes into the radiator.  If the step is properly designed so the float gets up and starts to plane quickly, then even less will end up in the radiator.  I think though, a single central float would work better with the Mustang than two floats.  That way the spray would go either side of the radiator, rather than into it.  Float design BTW is the hardest part of flying boat design and if you read the development of most flying boats, you'll find out just how much it was more an art than a science until quite late in their careers.  Often the boats and floats had to go back several times into the design shop to be rebuilt before they got them right.

[kitnut617]

I think that looks really hansome Greg, definiltely food for thought towards building one.  The radiator would have to be re-thought I think, even on the Spitfire they had to extend the air intake duct far forward of it's usual inlet position because of water ingestion so the radiator inlet way back where it is would definitely prove to be a problem (in RW that is    )

[NARSES2]

All depends on the float design.  If the float is designed to make the spray go sideways, rather than up, it makes sure that little water goes into the radiator.  If the step is properly designed so the float gets up and starts to plane quickly, then even less will end up in the radiator.  I think though, a single central float would work better with the Mustang than two floats.  That way the spray would go either side of the radiator, rather than into it.  Float design BTW is the hardest part of flying boat design and if you read the development of most flying boats, you'll find out just how much it was more an art than a science until quite late in their careers.  Often the boats and floats had to go back several times into the design shop to be rebuilt before they got them right.

A single float Mustang, now that could look stunning  I had read that the hull design of flying boats was the trickiest part but hadn't really then thought about that re floatplanes. Thanks 

[sequoiaranger]

>A single float Mustang, now that could look stunning <

Yes. Think of the Kawanishi "Rex" floatplane fighter for inspiration.

[simmie]

I thought massed water ingestion might cause trouble on takeoff etc.

Regards,

Greg

As well as the fines for fishing out of season 

Seriously Spitfire floatplanes still had underwing radiators and I think there were some italian racers with the radiators in the float supports, so would it actually be a practical problem ? Nice drawing by the way 

A spring-loaded flap in the floor of the of the intake duct might be an idea.