BAC Eagle Replacement

[Mossie]

The old girl would be around 35 years old now & despite stirling service in the Falklands War, '91 Gulf War, the Balkans & the '97 Hong Kong Crisis, she'd be in good need of a cup of cocoa, some comfy slippers & long lies in  :zzz: .

A replacement might well be in service by now, or knowing the British Government, just be coming in after lengthy delays & an attempt to get the most out of the ageing airframe.

What form would this have taken?  Would the bar have been raised, or would a more simple aircraft have been required?  Would it be a wholly British aircraft, a collaboration or a foreign import?

Another world beater???

Simon.

[Archibald]

First, the engine. As the Olympus had enormous, brute power, you need something like the F-119 to replace it whithout losing power. Maybe this plane could be stealth in the same way as the F-22 (not the F-117!)... why not something similar to the FB-22 ? join program between the US and UK? Or a supersonic flying-wing with a big bomb bay to house as many Storm shadow as possible?  

[Zen]

Depends on a LOT of factors that.

In the 60's the 'replacement' for the TSR.2 seems to have been considered a Hypersonic machine operating at around mach 4.5. Because of the time it would take to develope this type it was expected to enter service sometime from the late 1970's to 80's.
Considering the financial aspects it looks far more likely that the TSR.2 would not be replaced then but run on into the 1990's. As such replacement studies would start in earnest around the point when stealth becomes a big thing.

The argument would then be over what kinds of speed such a LO machine would have.

I can't help suspect the RAF would like in our world pencil in the A12 as that replacement until its cancelation.

So a UK LO machine along the lines of FOAC would emerge I suspect. But the big difference is that they'd actualy start building a prototype.

[Archibald]

I heard of the mach 4.5 machine various times. Of course, there was the Hawker P.1134... but there's also some mentions of the beast in Tony Buttler 's books (in the P.1154 and Vickers 583 articles).
Interesting though : what would a stealth TSR-2 look like? I already seen a stealth F-111 on this forum (lovely model!!!)

[RLBH]

Normally, the RAF would start planning a replacement for a type shortly after it entered service; for TSR.2, I see this occurring in about 1972-1975. This is not dissimilar to the Jaguar, so a similar timescale for the TSR.2 successor might be reasonable as a basis.

Presupposing that the RAF has pressed ahead with the Harrier, I can see them being enamoured of the V/STOL idea, and they're not going to accept a lower-performing aircraft, at least not to start with. Early studies, I figure, will probably finish up with variable geometry, which was in vogue at the time, twin reheated turbofans and liftjets (although Hawker Sidelley will probably try something with vectored thrust, perhaps like the Spey P.1154). The MOD being the MOD, this particular stage generates nothing more than large volumes of paper: probable excuses being that the Eagle is perfectly good just now, and that Britain couldn't afford a new aircraft in addition to the new fighter.*

After a few years, possibly with the ex-Royal Navy Buccaneers suggested (and perhaps accepted) as a limited counterpart to the Eagle in some theatres, the RAF launches a joint program with the USAF to replace the F-111 and Eagle. Australia, Israel and perhaps France are possible partners in this also, but probably without the same priority.

Early studies would probably include the Strike Eagle, a Strike Tomcat sort of thing, perhaps a diminuitive B-1B with two engines. There will also be some studies of improved F-111 and Eagle designs, with modern avionics, engines and materials. Pretty well all of these are found lacking in some respect, either low-observables, cost or runway performance. The latter is probably more of a concern to the RAF, seeing as it needs to operate from bases far closer to the Red Menace.

Later proposals, by this stage in the mid-1980s and benefiting from the ATF program, will largely lose the variable geometry wings, since they're pretty complex and expensive, not to mention difficult to stealth up, and probably the STOL requirement. A successful design is announced by the early 1990s, without a flyoff (much too expensive). If the French were involved, they sulk that it isn't the Mirage 4000 / Super-duper-Rafale, and go off to do their own sweet thing.

The resulting aircraft, as I see it, is essentially a larger ATF, with twin seats and significantly more space for internal weapons: this is before the era of the small-diametre bomb, so a laser-guided Mark 83 or Mark 84 is the only way to take out a sizable target. The aircraft is proposed with four underwing stores pylons, to be fitted once the threat has subsided, so that more weapons can be carried, and the radar is capable of targeting for AMRAAM, giving the aircraft self-defence capability.

Since it's got to be sold to a non-United States power, the State Department (or whoever) decrees that the aircraft can't have the whole gamut of stealth technology. Although making the aircraft more vulnerable, it also makes it cheaper, so giving it more chance of seeing production. If, at this point, the US Navy can be persuaded to come on board, since it could also replace their A-12 program, the thing's got a good chance of seeing production.

* If the RAF were to obtain the TSR.2, they would never have need for the Phantom ordered in its' place, nor for the Tornado that replaced the Phantom. So, something else would have to come along and serve as the RAF's main fighter. I've never seen this issue considered...

[Archibald]

What would replace TSR2?

Contraversially I'm going to say nothing - let me qualify that by saying "Nothing entirely British manufactured"

IMO continuing TSR2 may well have created a situation where, due to escalating development costs, the government becomes even more anti British manufacturers than it did in OTL.

As it happened the P1154 & HS681 were both sacrificed in a futile effort to save the TSR2 as Wilson and co started wielding the axe. Might not a situation have come to pass were to keep its wonderplane the RAF ended up with the TSR2 being the ONLY aircraft it had?

I think it likely that if it had entered production, as good an aircraft as it was, the TSR2 would have been the last entirely British designed and manufactured combat aircraft.

Thereafter collaborative projects or off the shelf purchases of US equipment would, just as now, be the order of the day.

If the RAF were to obtain the TSR.2, they would never have need for the Phantom ordered in its' place, nor for the Tornado that replaced the Phantom. So, something else would have to come along and serve as the RAF's main fighter. I've never seen this issue considered...

Here we are!

Blackburn P.141 or P.146 would have been the ideal plane...Spey and RB-172 were the perfect engines... Viggen, MiG-23, Mirage F-1 were selling abroad (or atempted to do so)

[RLBH]

MiG-23?

Now, that's an idea...

The TSR.2 single-handedly sends the UK into economic crisis. Extremist Labour party members overthrow the Conservative government, and the Royal Family whilst they're at it, and found the Union of British Communist Republics, declaring its' allegiance to the Soviet Union.

Then, we can have MiG-23s, MiG-25, Bears, and all sorts....

[uk 75]

It is interesting to note that back in the 60s at the height of the Cold War aircraft were almost regarded as being nearly out of date by the time they entered service. As Tony Buttler's book on bombers shows, the idea of a joint service UK equivalent of F111 had been considered in the 1958-63 but then put on ice.

Assuming the full buy of TSR2s had been made, together with the HS 1154 and HS681, the RAF would have been much smaller in 1975 than it had been in 1965. Again, assuming the UK had not become more concerned with NATO than its out of area/Commonwealth roles, the requirements for a TSR2 successor would have matched those of the US for an F111 successor in the 80s.

Successors might have been:

-a smaller swing wing aircraft developed in the late 60s-70s (perhaps also as a Buccaneer replacement for the RN)

-a longer range aircraft to fill the gap left by the Vulcans and Victors, notably for maritime recce and long range strikes

-sharing of stealth technology with the US would have been less likely if the UK had not purchased the F4 and C130, and developed the Harrier with McD, but the UK could have developed its own stealth aircraft.

A variety of the aircraft above would have replaced the TSR 2 from the 80s onwards (assuming TSR2s had been in service since 1969 or so).

Sadly, in reality the procurement of the 50 or so TSR2s that the RAF could have afforded in the 60s would have so absorbed expenditure that Lightnings and Hunters would have still be in service in the 80s (This is the view taken by a number of RAF men at a symposium some years ago run by the RAF).

UK 75

[Archibald]

This remind me that the others AdA components suffered aparently a lot of the Mirage IV / nuclear deterrent set up.
Many squadrons using F-84F Vautours and the like were simply disbanded. And the Mirage IV was not as up-to-date as the TSR-2! So I agree, nuclear bombers (even light bombers!) are huge burden for medium-sized powers...

[Mossie]

Sorry guys, posted this then b*****ed off on holiday!  I would have forgot to post otherwise....  

The thoughts I've had are two fold, assuming the same politcal situation as today.  Firstly, a project kicking off sometime  late seventies/early eighties & envisaging an aircraft that had become a victim of it's own success.  The Soviets had got a bit nervous when the Eagle was introduced & had designed their own aircraft to counter it.  In this event, a much more capable aircraft would be required, more power, speed (around mach 3, mach 4 would be a whole different approach) & weapons carrying capability.  The low level mission would have been still been important around this time.  I think a completley re-engineered version of the same aircraft would have fit the bill, improved engines, better radar, raised cockpit with better visibility, widespread use of composites, modern avionics & glass cockpit, entering service around the mid to late ninties.  Something like the 'Harrier II' approach, maybe including American investment.

My other thought is a project around the mid to late eighties, when it was becoming apparent that Glasnost & Perestroika were the way forward & the Soviets would not be the threat they once were.  Nuclear strike would not be the main issue (although the capability would be retained), more the ability to launch advanced conventional weapons & much improved manouveorability.  The short field capacity of the Eagle had been found to be very useful so the decision was made to introduce the P.1216 with it's VSTOL capability, entering service at a similar time to Eurofighter.

That's my take on it!

Simon

[RLBH]

Sorry guys, posted this then b*****ed off on holiday!  I would have forgot to post otherwise....  

The thoughts I've had are two fold, assuming the same politcal situation as today.  Firstly, a project kicking off sometime  late seventies/early eighties & envisaging an aircraft that had become a victim of it's own success.  The Soviets had got a bit nervous when the Eagle was introduced & had designed their own aircraft to counter it.  In this event, a much more capable aircraft would be required, more power, speed (around mach 3, mach 4 would be a whole different approach) & weapons carrying capability.  The low level mission would have been still been important around this time.  I think a completley re-engineered version of the same aircraft would have fit the bill, improved engines, better radar, raised cockpit with better visibility, widespread use of composites, modern avionics & glass cockpit, entering service around the mid to late ninties.  Something like the 'Harrier II' approach, maybe including American investment.

Naturally, although I perhaps wouldn't call that a "replacement": more a development.

As regards speed, I've seen the TSR.2 described as having Mach 3 aerodynamics, but engines for Mach 2. I guess that disregards the structure melting...

[Archibald]

TSR-3, 2005
Why not a TSR-2 improved with modern stuff?
- F-119 or F-135 engines
These engines have even more power than the Olympus. They are much more lighter and less bulky than the Olympus. More, they would give the TSR-3 the ability to supercruise.
- After that, you can introduce some stealth features, at the level of the F-18E/F or Rafale for example...

[Archibald]

With the much lower-fuel consuption of these engines, and the room free in the fuselage (for more fuel) there would an enormous increase in range...

[Mossie]

When I mentioned about a TSR2 development, I meant it as a complete redesign based on an existing aircraft, to the extent that it became part of a new generation.  Something like the Vixen being a 'development' of the Vampire, the Su-22 of the Su-7 or the Tu-22M Backfire of the Tu-22 Blinder, or even the Hornet E/F over the C/D.

It may not have been on this forum, but Kitnut mentioned that there is some definate design lineage between Hunter & Grippen (a lot of Grippen design was done by BAe).  These examples are the kind of thing I had in mind, a whole leap in capabilty & equipment, essentially creating a new aircraft.

Archie, something like the F-119 or F-135 is exactly what I was thinking of, although probably a Rolls Royce engine or at the very least a liscense built version of those engines or maybe a collaboration.  Add a new cockpit, wings, intakes, update of the avionics (remember the TSR2 predated transistors & definately microchips) & your looking at a very advanced aircraft even by todays standards & one that would look quite different to the original Eagle.

Simon.

[elmayerle]

Given existing tie-ins, I'd imagine a joint RR/GE version of the F120 or the F136.  Depending on what speed range you were looking at, you could definitely refine the inlets.  Redefining the nose contours to allow for a larger AESA antenna fit would be a definite step.