Next Generatio North American F-86? Sabre

[MAD]

Hello gents

I was watching a T.V documentary the other night about fighter aces.

It ranged from WWI to Vietnam. (unfortunately it did not cover any of the Middle East wars!)

But one thing that took my interest and had me thinking was the effectiveness of the MiG-15 in the Korean War, and with some major improvements and experience gained from Korea, the Soviet's developed and improved on this basic design in the form of the MiG-17 'Fresco'
The Mikoyan and Gurevich Bureau took the logical step of improving the basic and proven MiG-15, by –
-A new wing of 47 degree wing-sweep, with reduced thickness, with a different
 section and planform and no fewer than three wing fences
-A new tail on a longer rear fuselage.
-A more powerful VK-1F turbojet, producing 3,380 kg  (7,452 lb) thrust with
 afterburner.

This improved high speed handling and performance, climb-rate, thrust-to-weight ratio, diving performance and made for a much stable gun platform, over that of the original MiG-15 design.
As the Vietnam War, Middle Eastern Wars and Indo-Pakistan Wars would show, the MiG-17 and F-86 Sabre would go on to prove, these designs to still be formidable and cost effective dogfighter and ground attack aircraft, against so called more advanced and costlier fighter designs..

Saying this, how would you improve on the basic North American F-86 Sabre design, to give smaller – medium sized Air Forces the opportunity to continue in the use of this excellent dogfighter, and like the MiG-17 had been a refined and improvement over that of the MiG-15.

[Archibald]

Maybe the FJ-4 Fury could help answering your question? or something like the SMB-2 ?
I see what you want to say. You mean no F-100 and F-107 (too far and complex compared to the nimble F-86).

The Mystere IV (equivalent to the F-86 / MiG-15) evolved into the IVB, then to the Super Mystere. This one ended with a Mirage III engine (SMB-4) and mach 1.4!

How could have evolved a F-86...?
Maybe unreheated J-79 (the J-57 was too big), or J-65 ? This would give around 5 or 6 tons of thrust. More modern cockpit, bigger air-intake (with a simple radar in a "bullet') top speed mach 1.35, four AIM-9 underwings, one M-61A Vulcan and a refueling probe...  

[Shasper]

Sweep the wings back to 45-46 degrees or so, put an uprated Avon in it (like the CAC birds), either 4 20mm or 2 aden cannons...

You could base this off the F-86D/K/L too for a Radar version.

Shas B)

[kitnut617]

It is my understanding that the limiting factor of the F-86 was it's airframe.  It didn't matter how more powerful the engine was it just wouldn't fly any faster than it did.  Same thing happened with the Hunter.

Robert

[upnorth]

Easy, give the F-86D design to the Italians and let them Call the final result the Fiat G-91 series! It didn't get wide use, but it did have staying power.

Seriously, If you married up the D model radar to the Avon Powered variant and did a bit of area ruling to the fuselage, you might end up with something of an improvement.

Remember the F-102 was a dog and a half in performance until they area ruled it.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

If the aircraft was to continue in service with various air forces around the world it would benefit from an improved engine and other performance enhancements.  

One of my personal WHIF ideas was to take the basic F-86E/F airframe and try to give it a one piece windscreen similar to the F-15/F-18/F-5 with an improved cockpit with more MFD in the instrument panel and a better HUD.  

As far as weapons, I think the 30mm Bushmaster or the ADEN cannon would work just fine for air to air and ground targets.  The question that needs to be answered is would one suffice or would it be better to have two of them?  

The lack of pylons under the wing would also be resolved with the incorporation of three or four pylons under each wing with maximum wieght capacities of 500, 500, 2000, and 500 pounds each and a maximum ordnance load around 5000 - 6000 pounds.  Granted, this might also require a second look at the landing gear and beef it up with dual nose wheels and some larger wheels for the main gear but the idea is to provide a useful ordnance load and decent range for an aircraft that was designed as a day fighter and not an all-weather/night intercepter like the F-86D model.  The ability to carry and fire air to air missiles (AIM-9 Sidewinder), air to ground missiles (AGM-45 Shrike, AGM-65 Maverick), and radar jamming pods would also have to be considered as part of the standard upgrade for the F-86G Saber II (G=ground attack).  

A two seat trainer and forward air control aircraft conversion would also have to be considered for the basic F-86 airframe to allow for training of pilots to fly the primary aircraft and to provide a FAC aircraft to control attack aircraft in the close air support mission or for counter insurgency operations where a second set of eyeballs would be very valuable to have on board.  

[elmayerle]

More powerful engine at the same time as you use scaled down F-100 wings to further delay drag rise.  The alternative would be something along the lines of the FJ-4, a more potent engine and a better subsonic wing for attack operations and such.  I wonder how a TF-86/FJ-4 blend would work?

[Leigh]

Cupholders?
Leather interior?


Sorry but  wasn't the mighty Sabre  about as close to perfect as it gets
But then again the area rule concept is interesting, maybe an area ruled Fury?


And from what I know the main improvement the Mig-15 needed in Korea was better climate controls in the office, as the windscreen would fog up in a dive, and the Sabre Pilots knew this.

[Bryan H.]

What about a modern NA FJ-4 Fury/Fiat G.91R hybrid...  Get the increased power of the Fury with the rough field, simplicity & recon ability of the Gina.  For sake of commonality & ease of maintenance go for GE F404/F414 engine or perhaps even an F110.  Of course, it should be capable of using a panoply of modern weapons from iron-bombs & unguided rockets to LGB's, Mavericks & Sidewinders.  She'll need some sort of LANTIRN capability too.  If you need a radar, you can always switch out the recon-nose for a radar.  

Bryan  

[elmayerle]

Use the F404/F414, the F110 is way too much for the airframe.  a G-91/FJ-4 combo powered by this engine choice (which matches the J65 the FJ-4 shared with the early A-4s) would work nicely.  Mind you, you'd have to scale up the G-91 nose to fit a radar, at least one with any capability; I think I'd prefer to aim an upgraded F-86/FJ-4 at the CAS arena.

Oh, one further thought, a F-86H fuselage blended with the better parts, including the wings, of the FJ-4 and powered by a modern engine could be quite competitive, IMHO.

[Leigh]

What about a modern NA FJ-4 Fury/Fiat G.91R hybrid...

Kinda wot the rocket powered Fury ended up looking like. Somewhere in the depths I have alot of better pics than this I must dig them out sometime.

[Shasper]

And the Hot-Shot Engineer should know what he's talking about....


Shas B)

[elmayerle]

What about a modern NA FJ-4 Fury/Fiat G.91R hybrid...

Kinda wot the rocket powered Fury ended up looking like. Somewhere in the depths I have alot of better pics than this I must dig them out sometime.

Actually, if the Ginter book on the Vigilante is accurate, that was part of a research study over using an auziliary rocket to boost the NAGPAW/Vigilante's performance in critical areas; this approach was not proceeded with.

*chuckle* I still need to acquire a 1/72 FJ-4 to blend with a F-86D for my Seasabre Mk.2 effort with an Orenda engine and RCN markings.

[upnorth]

What about a G.91Y type approach to an upgraded Sabre? Rework the rear end to take two engines.

So two engines, Orendas of course   , F-100 style wing, accomodation for decent radar, area ruled fuselage, I'd also say in flight refueling capability must be worked in.....

[elmayerle]

So use a F-100 style refueling probe; easy enough to do.  And if you use two Orendas, would you put afterburners on them or just rely on the aircraft being sufficiently overpowered?  For a radar installation, you might revise the nose like that one upgraded installation trialed on a F-100c.  I'll post scanned pics when I get a chance from hme tonight.