Next Generatio North American F-86? Sabre

GeorgeC · August 30, 2006, 03:17:40 PM

I do wonder if the Sabre airframe was not developed to its limits for real. Engine power rose from about 5,500 lbs thrust up to 8,000 lbs plus, radars were fitted, cannon/rockets places HMGs and payloads doubled. The Sabre is one of thse aircraft that hides a considerable increase in capabilities behind a chance of mark letter, probably greater between early and later marks than the Mig15/17.

The Fury squeezed range/payload considerably with a complete aerodynamic make over but entered service after the F100, and the whole design was mach limited by its pre-area rule structure.

Cannon and Sidewinder armed F86K derivatives are interesting though. A less successful Hunter, failing to solve some early problems like the Swift, could have seen this aircraft equip RAFG and fighter command sqns in the late 50s and early 60s. I rather like the idea of extending the Mk6 colour schemes onto the Dog nose variants and using some all-silver Meteor or Lighting schemes. Then there are all those countries that bought Hunter!

Regards

GeorgeC

GTX · September 01, 2006, 11:53:16 PM

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation (CAC) Avon powered Sabre. Briefly this mated a F-86F airframe (with considerable modification) with a Rolls-Royce Avon and Aden 30mm cannon (and later, Sidewinder air-to-air missiles). Read here and here for more.

Regards,

Greg

MAD · September 02, 2006, 06:07:20 AM

QuoteI'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation (CAC) Avon powered Sabre. Briefly this mated a F-86F airframe (with considerable modification) with a Rolls-Royce Avon and Aden 30mm cannon (and later, Sidewinder air-to-air missiles). Read here and here for more.

Being an Aussie GTX, is what also made me think of this thread, but like the American's the RAAF was quick to want supersonic over all else (but unlike thw American's we got the Mirage III that thankfully came with 2 cannons. Although saying this I am sad that we never went ahead with a Avon powered version of the Mirage III, like we planned!)

It was also interesting that during the time of the Vietnam war that we (the Australians) never commited our CA-30/32's to combat with our Canberra's

Yes I must admit that I think we possible developed the best Sabre, but were to quick to replace them due to trend

M.A.D

elmayerle · September 03, 2006, 11:34:29 PM

What I find interesting is that CAC had such a problem fitting the Avon to the Sabre whereas NAA had comparatively few problems fitting the essentially equivalent Sapphire, in its J65 variant, to its Fury sibling. It seems too bad that more information exchange didn't take place. An interesting cross would be an Avon-Sabre and a F-86K for night/all-weather ops.

Archibald · September 04, 2006, 02:18:55 AM

I also heard (in Air&Cosmos some years ago) about heavily modified Canadair Sabre. Aparently they introduced an area-ruled fuselage with more powerful Orenda engine. They hoped that the Sabre would go supersonic, but aparently it was not the case...

kitnut617 · September 04, 2006, 08:16:50 AM

QuoteWhat I find interesting is that CAC had such a problem fitting the Avon to the Sabre whereas NAA had comparatively few problems fitting the essentially equivalent Sapphire, in its J65 variant, to its Fury sibling. It seems too bad that more information exchange didn't take place. An interesting cross would be an Avon-Sabre and a F-86K for night/all-weather ops.

From what I've read is that the Avon was a much heavier engine, and CAC had to shorten the rear fuselage and lengthen the forward fuselage in relation to the wing. On top of that the fuselage was deepened quite a bit.

The only problem with all that is the conversion I have of the CAC Avon Sabre (High Planes), seems to have the fuselage in the same place as an original Sabre apart from a slight difference in the depth to the forwar fuselage.

So now I don't know if what I read is right. Can anyone help?

Robert

Zen · September 04, 2006, 10:42:33 AM

The Ozzies had a LOT of trouble with converting the Sabre to use an Avon and Aden cannon. Odd really since I understand the Swiss had no such trouble.

I guess it comes down to how that project was ran.

MAD · September 05, 2006, 07:30:42 AM

Thanks Zen.
What design was it that the Swiss modified?

M.A.D

Mossie · September 05, 2006, 09:03:47 AM

Transonic performance could have been improved with a wing of greater sweep back, or possibly a delta. A delta would have had the advantages of greater weapons & fuel carrying ability. It's likely the tail would have been kept to improve stability.

This wouldn't have been inconcievable, the Su-9 with delta wing was developed from the Su-7 with sweptback wing & went on to form a whole family of delta-plus-tail aircraft.

The same basic aircraft was also used to create the Su-17/20/22 series, albeit heavily modified. The Sabre would also require heavy alteration, basically a new generation, what with all the new designs following on from the F-86 it was hardly worth it.

Simon.

Archibald · September 05, 2006, 09:14:09 AM

I would vote for an Adour engine of 4500 kgp of thrust, and delta wings.

elmayerle · September 05, 2006, 10:45:03 PM

Quote
QuoteWhat I find interesting is that CAC had such a problem fitting the Avon to the Sabre whereas NAA had comparatively few problems fitting the essentially equivalent Sapphire, in its J65 variant, to its Fury sibling. It seems too bad that more information exchange didn't take place. An interesting cross would be an Avon-Sabre and a F-86K for night/all-weather ops.
From what I've read is that the Avon was a much heavier engine, and CAC had to shorten the rear fuselage and lengthen the forward fuselage in relation to the wing. On top of that the fuselage was deepened quite a bit.

The only problem with all that is the conversion I have of the CAC Avon Sabre (High Planes), seems to have the fuselage in the same place as an original Sabre apart from a slight difference in the depth to the forwar fuselage.

So now I don't know if what I read is right. Can anyone help?

I'll grant you that the Avon was a definitely heavier engine than the standard J47 in US-built Sabres, but I doubt it was that much heavier than the J65 installed in the FJ-3 and FJ-4 Furies which were sibs of the Sabre. You have to wonder why they had problems when NAA-Columbus apparently didn't. Of course, if they were using first generation Avons, then they'd likely be afflicted with the same cannon-fire/surge problem that plagued early Hunter Marks with Avon engines (but not the Marks with Sapphires).

jcf · September 05, 2006, 11:00:02 PM

Speaking of Avon Sabre's, howzabout one in baby-blue?...

Cheers, Jon

elmayerle · September 06, 2006, 12:13:41 AM

Wasn't there also one done up in RAN markings by RAN erks taking an aircraft painting course?

jcf · September 06, 2006, 01:34:31 PM

QuoteWasn't there also one done up in RAN markings by RAN erks taking an aircraft painting course?

It maybe the same aircraft as the one in the pic was used for a painting course...each group came up with their own scheme for the bird as part of their "finals".

Cheers, Jon

elmayerle · September 06, 2006, 01:54:05 PM

Quote
QuoteWasn't there also one done up in RAN markings by RAN erks taking an aircraft painting course?
It maybe the same aircraft as the one in the pic was used for a painting course...each group came up with their own scheme for the bird as part of their "finals".

Cheers, Jon

Y'know, if you could get adequate documentation, that'd be one cool group/collection buidl. Imagine the reaction of JMN's when you provided documentation of thsoe "impossible" schemes. *wicked chuckle*