EE Canberra and Martin B-57

[rickshaw]

I think if I was to install much bigger diameter engines on a Canberra, I wouldn't mess around making 'spectacle' wing spars with all the structural problems that go with them.  I would raise the wing to the shoulder position and have a straight through spar and hang the engines under the wing.  The extended u/c could be accomodated two ways, either have them fold forward into an extended wing root (PR.9 style wing) or have them fold away like the Bristol T.188.

Why not a bicyle set, with outriggers, a'la Harrier?

[kitnut617]

I think if I was to install much bigger diameter engines on a Canberra, I wouldn't mess around making 'spectacle' wing spars with all the structural problems that go with them.  I would raise the wing to the shoulder position and have a straight through spar and hang the engines under the wing.  The extended u/c could be accomodated two ways, either have them fold forward into an extended wing root (PR.9 style wing) or have them fold away like the Bristol T.188.

Why not a bicyle set, with outriggers, a'la Harrier?

That is a thought -- but the space they would take up sort of rules against it (the Achilles heel of the B-47).  I was thinking that if the Bristol T.188 system was used the wheels would only occupy a small part of the bomb bay, but because the wing is higher, the roof of the bomb bay is higher too, so would equal out for space.  The T.188 u/c folds away in an unusual way, once the aircraft takes off, the wheel axles are rotated downwards 90 degrees (so the wheel lies parallel with the ground), then as the u/c retracts inwards, the wheels end up vertical inside the fuselage, in the T.188 the fuselage is very slim so the two wheels end up almost side by side, but in a Canberra it's a lot chubbier so there would still be a space between the two wheels when they're retracted.  Should be noted that the T.188 has a very similar wing plan to the Canberra too.  Now there's a thought, put the T.188 wings/engines on a Canberra, streamline the nose and have swept tailplanes --- hmmm!  ----

[rickshaw]

MMmm, perhaps a few feet spliced into the centre of the fuselage?  A central set of wheels doesn't take up all that much space.  Much more problematic I suspect would be the local strengthening needed to carry the airframe weight through to the undercarriage.  Might be just quicker and easier to have telescoping main wheel undercarriage legs, like on several WWII propeller driven fighter aircraft.

[DarrenP]

Just picked up Warpaint 60
My Pic is the spit of WV787 the trials aircraft with Armstoong sidley used for Sapphire trials then Ferrenti for AIRPASSIII(Blue Parrot) Trials. Was also used as the aerodynamic proof of concept of the T22. Other trials version include XH132 fitted with AI23 and red top missile by short brothers designated SC.Mk9

[Aircav]

Does anyone know if there's a WB-57F conversion in the offing for the 1/48 Airfix B-57 ?

[Daryl J.]

I believe there is nothing.    Too bad eh?


Daryl J.

[Daryl J.]

Were there any swept wing Canberra proposals?



Daryl J.

[Mossie]

Yes, a 30⁰ swept wing was proposed for the 'High Speed Bomber', the study that lead to Canberra.  It was decided to proceed with a straight wing because there were no real aerodynamic benefits at the relatively slow speed, although it was accepted that it might be desireable if performance improved.

The question of wether or not a swept wing was proposed once Canberra was in service is difficult to answer as EE records are incomplete.  I would be surprised if it wasn't once engine development started to provide much higher thrust.  Martin proposed a swept wing & T-tail for the B-57, but a bomber was required quickly so this was rejected.  They still managed a few changes like the tandem cockpit.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Martin proposed a swept wing & T-tail for the B-57, but a bomber was required quickly so this was rejected.  They still managed a few changes like the tandem cockpit.

I am glad that Marin was not allowed to produce that horrible looking abomination they labeled the "Super Canberra."  The modifications done to the original design were pleasing when you consider the tandem seating arrangement of the aircrew and the rotary weapons bay which allowed increased aircraft speed during bomb runs on the target.  Attached image shows just how horrible the Super Canberra looked in the general arrangement drawing which looks more like the XB-51 than the Canberra.

[Daryl J.]

Heh!  That picture almost makes me sorry I asked.      

It looks sort of like an XB-51 bred a B-57 and  the illegitimate offspring ate far too many Doritos.  



Daryl J.

[Mossie]

Yeah, it hardly looks like a Canberra anymore.  Still, it's very interesting, thanks for posting Jeff.

Daryl, the EE early swept wing variant looks more like a traditional Canberra (sorry, can't post a pic due to copyright).  Greg posted a pic of the early version on page 10, basically replace the diamond wing with a 30⁰ sweep of shorter chord, with the intakes remaining unswept.

Another reason I can think of that EE must have at least thought about a later swept wing Canberra variant is their experience with the Lightning.  A thin wing transonic or supersonic Canberra would just be a natural extension of the work carried out on the P.1.  I would variants would be more conventional than the Martin 'Super Canberra', more like the way the Il-30 & Il-54 closely resembled the Il-28?

EDIT, found a thread by TsrJoe (purely by accident, searching for something else, what are the chances of that happening when I posted about a few hours before!).  There's not much, just a quote from a book saying that a Canberra with swept wings & rear fuselage mounted engines was considered.
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,12045.0/highlight,canberra.html

[Mossie]

I was wondering if the Canberra interceptor might also have been equipped with the shorter range AAMs like Redtop and Firestreak for certain missions?
Also does anyone know if the shape of the radome had been decided?  

Geoff, I've found a three view on Secret Projects of the Canberra P.12 with a more pointed radome than that in BSP Bombers.  The same thread that I got his pic from shows a diagram with Firestreak fitted, so along with that Sea Vixen like radome in the pic, it confirms everything we discussed earlier.  It mentions that the B(I).8 gun pack would likely have been fitted, which could be swapped out for the Napier Double Scorpion rocket motor.

Original thread: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4411.0/highlight,canberra+fighter.html

There is some more on fighter variants of the Canberra on that link, including the Spey engined P.28 that was touted as a TSR.2 replacement.  It would have had a multi-role capabilty & would have had a secondary air to air capacity.

[GTX]

And just what are you doing posting SECRET info online

Regards,

Greg

[Mossie]

If I told you....

[Old Paul]

To revive an old thread...how about something like this?

A Canberra with a reverse-engineered Martin B-57 cockpit. Perhaps for anti-shipping strike?
I see you can get an Eduard 1/72 B-57 on-line for about twelve squid at the moment...hmmmmmmmmm!