TSR 2 missile armament: AS30s, Bullpups etc

[uk 75]

Although Paul Lucas's excellent articles in MAM answer the question of the armament of the TSR2 pretty definitively, I still have hankering to see additional missiles to MARTEL on the bird.

BULLPUP

Although something of a lemon, Bullpups seem to be around in NATO longer than the late 60s.  In the early 60s it was the UK's only tactical asm until AS 30 came along.  As Bullpups are available in kit form I think it legit for early trials TSR2s to carry 2 or 4 of this weapon as done by the RN Scimitars and Buccaneer force.

AS30

This missile seems to have mainly been bought to beef up the armament of non-nuclear Canberras in the Near and Far East.  It served the French much longer and again it seems reasonable that NEAF and FEAF early delivery TSR2s could carry the weapon.

Walleye, Maverick, Condor etc

TSR2s in the non-nuclear could receive US tactical ASMs for non-European theatres, notably Vietnam.  Walleye is a big weapon and would look good on a TSR2. Condor was a proposed US asm that got cancelled.

SRAM

Not strictly a tactical weapon I know, but it equipped US FB111s and might have been a 70s option for intermediate nuclear TSR2s deployed in response to the Soviet SS20 deployment (no other small nuclear ASM (apart from MARTEL) available).

Hope this gives some of you TSR2 fans some helpful ideas

UK 75

[Hobbes]

How about some French weapons? The ASMP, maybe?  

[Mossie]

How about JP.233 for the 80's/gulf war era?  Mounted on pylons they're probably big enough to look quite imposing.  ALARM would go well too.

Sea Eagle for a maritime attack version, assuming a history were the RN didn't relinquish their Buccs.

Talking about French weapons, how about Durandal?

Simon.

EDIT, just thought, how about Shrike instead of Martel?  The RAF did use them.  Being quite small, it might look slightly ridiculous on the TSR2, but you'd be able to carry several in the weapons bay, as well as on the pylons.

[TsrJoe]

the Martin/Kongsberg Bullpup was the ASM. of choice when OR.343 was being finalised, indeed most early drawings of the TSR.2 where weapons fits are shown illustrate this missile.

During the TSR.2's gestation period the Bullpup was replaced by AS.30, which in turn was to have been superseded by the BAC. developed TV. guided version of MARTEL. the weapon originally being designed for carriage on the aircraft.

cheers, Joe

[Geoff_B]

How about JP.233 for the 80's/gulf war era?  Mounted on pylons they're probably big enough to look quite imposing.  ALARM would go well too.

Sea Eagle for a maritime attack version, assuming a history were the RN didn't relinquish their Buccs.

Talking about French weapons, how about Durandal?

Simon.

EDIT, just thought, how about Shrike instead of Martel?  The RAF did use them.  Being quite small, it might look slightly ridiculous on the TSR2, but you'd be able to carry several in the weapons bay, as well as on the pylons.

Actually the JP233 system consisted of two separate pods that could be pylon mounted or fitted to a bomb bay. It was supposed to be a joint effort with the US and be carried by the F-111's. Trials were conducted with buccaneers in the late 70's ealy 80's. I get the feeling the system was intended for use on the German border disabling both the airfields but also the road network.

For TSR2 the main weapon would likely be mounted in the bomb bay and the anti-personel/anti-vehicle small munitions fitted in aerodynamic pods on the wing Pylons.

Check out Chris Gibsons Skomer site for some of the guided weapon we had lined up. Martel appearded to be the key basis for 60's & 70's air to surface guided weapons, with cluster bomblet and nuclear armed versions in addition to TV guided and Radar guided versions actually developed.

Don't think Bullpup was all that well regarded, the Roayl Navy used them on the Scimitar but it didn't really carry on much to the Buccaneer.

G

[SPINNERS]

Martels are a natural but I'd never considered SRAM's. Good call!

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

Interresting thread

For my part, I worked on what a modernised TSR.2 could carry while I was working on Eagle GR.6 (TSR.2) profiles for Zac's serie of Kiwi's TSR.2.

For the standart air-to-ground missiles, I imagined two solutions: the AS-30L (the laser guided variant of the AS-30, more effective and still very usefull in France) and of course, the Maverick missiles on TER
I never thought about the Bullpup, but for the early variants of the plane, especially for export market, it could be a good choice in front of the French AS-30.

And what about some Brimstone or Hellfire missiles? The TSR-2 could probably easily carry 3 TER on each weapon store, giving a total of 36 missiles!!

For self-defense, I imagined a pair of Sidewinder placed on the top of the wing à la Jaguar, or/and on the inner pylons, à la Tornado... Later, for the export planes updated with a multi-purpose radar (APG-68, A2G optimized Blue Vixen or RDY-2), a pair of AMRAAM or MICA-EM could replace the Sidewinder...

And for more special strikes, what about GBU-28 Bunker Buster, SLAM-ER or, of course, Storm Shadow??

[Archibald]

Exocet! Definitely Exocet!
Pollux, if you're still seeking the TSR-2, there around 4 or 5 still available in euromaquette (near the gare de Lyon in Paris. Nice shop )
ASMP is some cool idea, here's an idea on the subject.
We can imagine a tri-service (France-GB-USA) ASMP with the TERCOM guidance system, in the 80's. Now this allowed the AdA to use a non-nuclear variant in GW-1 and later (Mirage 2000N)  paving the way for  the scalp in 2005)

French Jaguars plastered a Lybian airfield (in Tchad) with Durandal in 1986, and ths was quite efficient! So let's go for durandal...

[rallymodeller]

I've finally decided on doing my TSR in Canadian markings as a maritime striker. It's going to be carying a pair of Harpoons and a pair of drop tanks.

[Mossie]

Heres a couple of Nuclear Standoff Missile proposals from Project Cancelled:



Blue Water is familiar from the SAMI weapons set.  Megaton warhead with a range of 90nm.  Could be carried on pylons in pairs or semi-recessed in the weapons bay.



Grand Slam I hadn't seen before, 100nm range at 4500-5000ft/s.  Carried semi-recessed in the fuslage.  Contained 40 decoys, each giving the same radar signature as the missile.

Both would have made very big bangs indeed.

Simon.

[DamienB]

AS30

This missile seems to have mainly been bought to beef up the armament of non-nuclear Canberras in the Near and Far East.  It served the French much longer and again it seems reasonable that NEAF and FEAF early delivery TSR2s could carry the weapon.

Can't remember where I read it but one of the PRO files discounts AS30s for TSR2 use due to their age - they were reaching the end of their shelf life and were not being replaced. In an alternate reality where it got airborne and into service as per the original schedule, perhaps you could hang some AS30s off it but otherwise...

[elmayerle]

How about AS.30Ls coupled with a Pave Tack in the weapons bay?

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Grand Slam 100nm range at 4500-5000ft/s.  Carried semi-recessed in the fuslage.  Contained 40 decoys, each giving the same radar signature as the missile.

Was there any additional information available on the Grand Slam Missile?  I find it interesting that they project/code name for the original 22,000 pound high explosive bomb designed by Barnes-Wallis was used again as a name for a stand off missile with a nuclear warhead.  

The general appearance reminds me of the current missile design used for the TACMS missile that is launched from the MLRS.  Very compact and almost a bullet shape to it.  

[elmayerle]

For updated variants serving into the late 1990s and the early part of this century, how about a couple of the almost-proposed (died when TSSAM did) TSSAM-RAF variants hanging under the wings?  The main difference between these and the basic AGM-137A would have been an extra fuel tank adding roughly a foot to the length of the missile.  A fully buttoned up TSSAM or TSSAM-RAF makes for an interesting shape under the wing.

[TsrJoe]

Quote...

For my part, I worked on what a modernised TSR.2 could carry while I was working on Eagle GR.6 (TSR.2) profiles for Zac's serie of Kiwi's TSR.2.


ooohh now those id like to see...