CF5 alternative - Canadian Phantoms

[GeorgeC]

I know this has been asked before, about 4 years ago, but the order of posts is so jumbled I can't be sure what the answer was.  Which version of the F-4 were the Canadians considering in the competition which selected the CF5?  

[rallymodeller]

Quoting J. Baugher's website (an excellent resource for things like this):

In search of a more affordable fighter, Canada launched a competition for a lightweight fighter contract. The list of competitors was sort of bizarre, many of the entries being far from lightweight. They included the Fiat G-91, Douglas A-4 Skyhawk, McDonnell F-4 Phantom, Rockwell A-5A Vigilante, Grumman A-6A Intruder, LTV A-7A Corsair II, Republic F-105 Thunderchief, North American F-100S (a derivative of the Super Sabre), the North American F-107A, the General Dynamics F-111, and the Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighter. The RCAF had a strong preference for the F-4 Phantom, but in July of 1965, the Canadian government announced that the Northrop F-5 Freedom Fighter had been chosen as the winner. The reason for the selection was primarily on the grounds of cost, the F-5 being considerable cheaper than any of the alternatives.

So there. I think more can be seen in the next entry on our choice on the F-104:

In the late 1950s, the Canadian government had a clear need for a supersonic replacement for the Sabre Mk.6 in RCAF service. Several aircraft were considered in the competition, including the McDonnell F4H Phantom II, the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter, and the Grumman F11F-1F Super Tiger. The RCAF clearly preferred the Phantom as the Sabre replacement, but this was rejected fairly early on, probably due to its high cost. As the alternative, the RCAF preferred the Super Tiger (even though it had not been purchased by the US Navy), but on July 2, 1959, it was announced that Canada had chosen the F-104 Starfighter as the replacement for the Sabre Mk.6 in service with the RCAF's European Air Division. The choice was probably made because of a better deal (in terms of economics) being struck between the manufacturer and the Canadian government.

I think it can be assumed that the version was the F-4C by the date and the choice of the USN designation for the aircraft, although the F-4D would also be likely.

So, to sort out the choices, we could have had:

Fiat G-91
Douglas A-4 Skyhawk
McDonnell F-4 Phantom
Rockwell A-5A Vigilante
Grumman A-6A Intruder
LTV A-7A Corsair II
Republic F-105 Thunderchief
North American F-100S
North American F-107A
General Dynamics F-111


instead of the F-5.

[kitnut617]

In my book on the CF-5/CF-116 from the 'In Canadian Service' series, it says that the RCAF prefered the F-105.  It doesn't mention the F-4 at all.

Robert

[Alvis 3.1]

Several of the books I have on the RCAF/CF have it stating the Air Force was wanting Phantoms. As I recall, it was the E model, but then again I may be wrong.

One odd proposal was for Canadair to manufacture Spey engined Tooms, with of all people the USMC being one customer! I assume the USMC was looking at flying phantoms off the smaller Essexes, and operating independantly from the Navy, as the lack of commonality wouldn't make much sense otherwise.

Apparently, once Canadair got finished making the F-5, it's pricetag was the same as the "pick up at the dealers" cost of an F-4 Phantom. Oh well. The Canadian Tooms I've done were all using the "E" frame.


Alvis 3.1

[kitnut617]

Hi Alvis,

I had seen a photo of a model Canadain F-4 on Rick Chin's (of Uncle Bill's Hobby Shop) Gombs website.  I was so taken in by it   I thought maybe Canada did have F-4's in Europe.  

After emailing him about it I learnt it was a whiffer  B)  B)

Have you any photos of your renderings ?

As to the F-105, it was in reference to Canada changing their requirements to Tactical Ground Attack in Europe.  It states in the book on CF-5's that the CF-5 had a better load carrying capability than the F-100   but was cheaper than the F-105.

Robert

[viper29_ca]

Hey Rally,

You would't happen to have a link to that website that you got that info from would you?

Would like to add it to my resources!!!!!

Thanks
Scott

[rallymodeller]

Hey Rally,

You would't happen to have a link to that website that you got that info from would you?

Would like to add it to my resources!!!!!

Thanks
Scott

No sweat, Viper. It's http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/uscombataircraft.html

Cheers!  

[Alvis 3.1]

As to the F-105, it was in reference to Canada changing their requirements to Tactical Ground Attack in Europe.  It states in the book on CF-5's that the CF-5 had a better load carrying capability than the F-100   but was cheaper than the F-105.

Robert

Everything about that purchase revolved around getting the most planes for the dollar, with NO idea of what to use them for once bought. So much so, they were placed in storage for ages until a scenario was dreamed up: Northern Flank defence. Yup, in case of massive Soviet attack, we'd fly out CF-5s to Norway to help out.

Eventually we refurbished all of them to CF-188 cockpit standards, then put em BACK in storage as we didn't have the money to FLY them!


Have I EVER mentioned I HATE the CF-5? not the plane itself, but the bureaucratic dollar wasting exercise it became?

Stupid government!

Stupid bean counters!

Grrrr!


Alvis 3.1

[GeorgeC]

Interesting that Buagher's site refers to a F-4L which might have has Speys to take advantage of their greater thrust.  Quickly shelved, no doubt, when the K and M s' high-level performance problems arose.  Given that the Canadian fighter decision was only a couple of months after the RAF M order, a 'CF4-M' might be a possibility.  I suspect 'blunt-nosed' D, J or K is more likely than an E for a 65 order.  However, manufacturers are likely to offer you pretty much any set of options to get a signature on contract - British engines on the Apache was a surprise decision to even the project team - and a later change to the E is quite plausible.  Perhaps the definative offer is lost in the mists of time.

Regards

GeorgeC        

[mrdj]

I'll have to do a bit of digging for the proper references, but I seem to recall the following chain of events:

Sabre replacement:
RCAF 1st choice was a F-105 with an Iroquois enging. In 1958, this was shelved when the Arrow was scrapped.

The subsequent competition was mainly between the F-104G and the Gumman Super Tiger. While the Grumman had merits, so too did the F-104.

In the end, the F-104 was selected, and Canadair recieved a contract to build them. As a bonus, Canadair also built 140 MDAP F-104G, as well as wings and rear fuselages for other assembly lines.

Overall, not a bad deal for the economy.

Later in 1965, the RCAF decided to get a new tactical fighter. In the end, the decision was purely political, and the CF-5 was cheap to buy and fly. It was also a conventionally armed aircraft. (at the time, the RCAF had Genie equipped Voodoos, nuclear tipped BOMARCs, and nuclear armed CF-104s, soon that would change as well) I seem to recall reading that at one point, there was official word that prevented derogotory comments being made about the f-5's performance during testing, because the decision had been already made. (I'm digging through the books to confirm that one)

In the end, the CF-5 was a good buy, not as a tactical fighter, but as an advanced trainer.


[/QUOTE]Eventually we refurbished all of them to CF-188 cockpit standards, then put em BACK in storage as we didn't have the money to FLY them!

They were replaced by Bombardier's bid with the Hawk trainers. A fine aircraft, but more politics.

References:
Starfighter by David Bashow
Cf-104 Starfighter Canadian profile by Robert McIntyre
Canadaia Cf-5 Starfighter Canadian profile by Robert McIntyre
Sixty Years By Larry Milberry

[Radish]

Canadian CF-4s.......well for my money they'd be based on the most attractive "looker", the "J" model, these later being replaced/upgraded with "S" models.

Colours:

of course, first up has to be all the "special schemes", based on the previous CF-101B/F schemes as well as those used by the Starfighter and Hornet. Hence, lots to play with.

For everyday usage, there's the dark green all over, the standard NATO grey/green over light grey, a lizard scheme similar to that used by the USAF, a lizard scheme similar to that used by the Luftwaffe, SEAsia scheme of course, tactical grey schemes used by the USMC and the Canadians with their Hornets, and then other more speculative schemes dependent on what you want.

mmmmmmm.....sounds like a good idea  

[Phnx28]

Everything about that purchase revolved around getting the most planes for the dollar, with NO idea of what to use them for once bought. So much so, they were placed in storage for ages until a scenario was dreamed up: Northern Flank defence. Yup, in case of massive Soviet attack, we'd fly out CF-5s to Norway to help out.

Eventually we refurbished all of them to CF-188 cockpit standards, then put em BACK in storage as we didn't have the money to FLY them!


Have I EVER mentioned I HATE the CF-5? not the plane itself, but the bureaucratic dollar wasting exercise it became?

Stupid government!

Stupid bean counters!

Grrrr!


Alvis 3.1

Fully agreed on my part about the bean counters, whatever their nationality. Though at least with the Freedom Fighters here there was an acknowledgement they'd (maybe) be used for something eventually once Canada's staff types figured it out after signing the contract the politicians handed them. This is unusually realistic, given what I see as the purseholders' more usual habit of simply proclaiming from on high what's useful and what's not right off without even bothering to do the homework to back up said claims. I won't name names anymore since it's truly tiring; all of us here and certainly they know who and what I'm talking about... :zzz:
Re: Canadian Phantoms: Voodoo, Freedom Fighter and even ex-Starfighter colors all strike me as appropriate, depending on what tasking the model has where and when. The most likely variant would probably be the F-4D in my estimate since NORAD compatibility would of course be paramount, the CF-104s already having Europe covered at least temporarily. That way Canada could get some more use out of its store of Falcon missiles as used on the Voodoos before fully switching to the Sparrow/Sidewinder and gunpod route. Desirable Canuck designation IMHO: CF-110B Phantom II B), partially after the early USAF F-110A Spectre prototype leased from the Navy which MacNamara ordered changed back to the joint-style F4C Phantom II once that system entered effect.

[AirJim]

Sabre replacement:
RCAF 1st choice was a F-105 with an Iroquois enging. In 1958, this was shelved when the Arrow was scrapped.

The subsequent competition was mainly between the F-104G and the Gumman Super Tiger.

Later in 1965, the RCAF decided to get a new tactical fighter. In the end, the decision was purely political, and the CF-5 was cheap to buy and fly.

I always remember the F-105 was being sought as a Sabre replacement with the Iroquois engine.  In fact I've got a shot of a desk model in RCAF markings.  I'm not sure that the F-105 was considered again for the CF-5 job.  I do know that the RCAF wanted Phantoms bad and they were the first choice both for the CF-104 purchase and the CF-5 purchase.  Both times they were deemed too expensive.  In the case of the CF-104 buy, the RCAF then settled for either the Super Tiger and the CF-104.  The RCAF wanted the Super Tiger and in fact a friend of mine has a few papers from the DND archives of the RCAF justifying the purchase.  I think the CF-104 was purchase because Lockheed and Canadair worked out a much better production deal.  When the CF-5 decision was made the front runner was again the Phantom which again was overruled by cost.  The RCAF then wanted the A-7...but the politicians bought the CF-5.

As for the variant.  I always assumed F-4C.  Not sure why...

Jim

[Scooterman]

Sorry for going off topic, but was there any other changes to the Iroquois Thunderchief?

[aerofan]

In my history of the RCAF book, it mentions that the F-4's were considered as replacements for the CF-101B (the first batch) until the F-101B swap with the USAF happened (Operation Peace Wings).

As for the F-105 here's a link to a promo model

Iroquois powered F-105

just scroll down to see the F-105 on the webpage.