Delta Force Air Corps

[John Howling Mouse]

Come on guys, this dosen't seem to be in the spirit of this forum.  The vibe that's coming along is that because Pollux's Delta air wing & roundels don't fit in with the role of Delta Force as they currently exist it can't happen.  Isn't this the What If Modellers Forum???

There seems to be some hostility to Polluxs (& mine) ideas in this thread, it wasn't my intention to offend & I'm sure it's not Pollux's either.  Lets just stick to dicussing an interesting, if off the wall idea.  I'm certain it's not the most bizzare thing to come out of this forum!

I've become jaded with a few other forums because they'd become too bitchy & opinionated.  I really enjoy this forum & I'd been coming to think that this place wasn't like this. Don't prove me wrong.

I'm happy to carry this on if Pollux and anyone else is.

What he said!   Alternative history and What If modelling go hand-in-hand so well.

The philosophy of "My Freakin' History" has the same virtue as "My Freakin' Model."  There are folks in here that are well-versed with at least a few portions of recorded history (as subjective as that will always be on this planet) just like there are those who can blow our minds with scale representations of real vehicles that exist(ed).  And there are plenty of websites and other gatherings already devoted to those fine pursuits. But I always saw the true strength of this site to be those people who are not content with what was and instead create what could have been.

My continued applause to those of you who have that rare gift of being able to truly think out of the box.

P.S. That banner also caught me by surprise (next season starts here tomorrow night and I don't get that channel anymore!!).

P.P.S.  They stole that Chinook camo idea from ME btw (do a search on this site)!!  They owe me royalties, man!

 

[Phnx28]

I like this thread so far :ar:. If you have an unstable enough international and domestic scene (as PolluxDeltaSeven and others have commented), literally all bets could be off as the trust/forebearance you normally find between citizens, soldiers and their government begins to wear thin and the phrase "to H*** with the Constitution!" seems more necessary and reasonable by the day, considering the circumstances...
The aircraft choices and logos all make sense, especially the logos if this "Rogue Dreaded D" is forming the nucleus of a vaguely-fascist yet clearly-paranoid American putsch force. I wonder how tough Congress would be if Delta Air Corps A-37s made a few mock strafing runs which left no doubt about their willingness to use those miniguns and all? Especially if those Dragonflies wore that Chinook camo, since it emphasizes how the most combat-ready, all-business units have never survived inspection; and vice-versa for those units in the grip of the proverbial "Sukhomlinov Effect."

[Sisko]

Damn love those markings!!!!!!!

Interesting scenerio. In order for it to occur I woiuld suggest that a large section of the US military would have to be so incensed by the actions of the elected representatives that they felt they had no choice.

Choose one or all from the list below.

Economic missmangaement leading to economic hardship or worse collapse.
A threat from a large and powerful country which is not taken seriously by the elected representatives.
A serious war in which the US was not voictorious due to misshandling by the elected representatives.
A charasmatic Military man clashes with the elected representatives over an issue maybe one of the above  and somehow winds up being charged with treason.

Just a few ideas.

[Archibald]

Pollux if your reference is "the rock" mine is "24" season 2 (when the terrorists detonate a nuclear bomb... in the desert, thanks to Bauer). President overthrowned "legally", heavy bombers on the road to anihilate the "ennemy"... I saw it 3 years ago, and was really glued to my TV screen every saturday night! This is clearly the best "24" season ever!  

[dragon]

Fine, the air wing does not fit in with current SF organization.  The solution is simple, really, create a new Special Force.  Say for example; United States Foreign Legion (the core of its officers coming from Delta Force).  That explains the roundel.

[Phnx28]

Damn love those markings!!!!!!!

Interesting scenerio. In order for it to occur I woiuld suggest that a large section of the US military would have to be so incensed by the actions of the elected representatives that they felt they had no choice.

Choose one or all from the list below.

Economic missmangaement leading to economic hardship or worse collapse.
A threat from a large and powerful country which is not taken seriously by the elected representatives.
A serious war in which the US was not voictorious due to misshandling by the elected representatives.
A charasmatic Military man clashes with the elected representatives over an issue maybe one of the above  and somehow winds up being charged with treason.

Just a few ideas.

How about the current environment (already a combination the middle two of your ideas; maybe the fourth too before long... ) and the ever volatile issue of military pay; or these soldiers' perceived imbalance between it and what service they're rendering while Congress votes ever-higher salaries for itself and plays ever-dumber games with the defense budget. IIRC the usual "last straw" precipitating Third World coups tends to be the civilian government either firing senior field/flag officers or slashing their pay, thus adding personal injury to longstanding political insult in the form of whatever policies the coup opposes.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

If your logo was to be used for anything at all it would be as a shoulder patch for recognition purposes at the unit level for rapid identification of the friendly participants.  It would also be applicable as a unit badge but without the star or the red/white stripes.  Perhaps a full color version for parades and in garrison use in Red/White/Blue and a subdued version for use on the combat uniforms in OD Green/Black.    

Their are other ways of employing a "private airforce" that does allow for covert operations that are beyond the scope of the 160th SOAR or any of the USAF-SOC units.  This would be accomplished by hiring a "private contractor" to perform the mission with aircraft in civilian markings and registration.  By using contracted aircraft there is no association with the government or any military organization.  

You only have to look back to the Vietnam unpleasantness to see what I am referring to.  There were several private contractors operating out of locations in SEA that provided covert air support to the CIA as well as local governments involved in counter-insurgency operations.  

China Air Transport, Air America, are just two of the contractors that provided air support.  This same scenario was also used in Central American recently with a private contractor in support of operations in El Salvador and Nicaragua. There was reference to a program called "Yellow Fruit" that had something to do with rotary wing aircraft (Huges/MDD 500) supporting counter-drug/anti-narcotics operations that fell under congressional scrutiny during the eighties that managed to get a nice write up and unwanted exposure in a Time Magazine article.  

PDS; try creating an OD Green/Black version as a shoulder patch or unit patch for application to the aircraft/vehicles involved in your story.  It would be much more credible than an official national insignia as you are trying to show with your current ideas.  

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

Well, my attempt initially was not to create a debate, but just to have fun with some drawing
But I admit that this little debate was really interresting, a lot of ideas came from it, and it helps me to developp the (still unfinished) back story  


By the way, I want to thank JHM, Mossie, Sisko, Phoenix and the other who like the thread (even if I could easily understand that some people won't like this threat, no problems with that )... It's a good thing to see that some support the concept of radically different Alternate Universe!!

I know that this is a sensitive topic: imagining some US military doing a coup seems to be quite impossible... But well, I already saw topics about a French Nazy state, Modern Crusades, about war against Chinese and/or islamist states, I even myself wrote a topic with Indonesia beeing under the AQ control... Probably that some French, Muslims, Chinese or Indonesian people could be hurt by readin such things, but that's just fiction, and often just a good reason to have beautiful models!!

P.S. That banner also caught me by surprise (next season starts here tomorrow night and I don't get that channel anymore!!).

Lol!! I really like the reactions about the banner
From the US forums, that's something like that: "WTF!! Is that spoiler??"
From French forums, that's something like that: "Well... Who's that??"

In fact, I just wanted to do something with BSG, so I just replace Iron Man on a Marvel's Civil War banner and that's it!! No spoiler, just fun for me
I have a new one in preparation, a FAR better one, still with the same model  

Economic missmangaement leading to economic hardship or worse collapse.
A threat from a large and powerful country which is not taken seriously by the elected representatives.
A serious war in which the US was not voictorious due to misshandling by the elected representatives.
A charasmatic Military man clashes with the elected representatives over an issue maybe one of the above and somehow winds up being charged with treason.

Just a few ideas.

Interresting idea!!
And for more interesting stuffs, we could be less... sure of what happen!!
I mean, I will probably not decide who was wrong and who was right!! With the two point of view beeing exposed, with no real evidence that a single side was right, it could be clearer to see that a Civil War is by definition pure madness!!

For example, some of the military could think that the threat from a large and powerfull country was not taken seriously by the government, while the government and maybe the CIA thought that there was a serious hope for a pacific and diplomatic solution to the crisis.

Or if the military thought that they lose a serious war because of the misshandling by the government, a lot of observers saw that the military have their own responsability in losing the war ...

etc etc...


Well, initially I was just thinking about fun markings, and now, I have an entire new Alternate Universe to write!! With not less than 4 of them still not finish, I really have to think about writing a book to put them all inside!!!    

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

PDS; try creating an OD Green/Black version as a shoulder patch or unit patch for application to the aircraft/vehicles involved in your story. It would be much more credible than an official national insignia as you are trying to show with your current ideas.

Do you have any picture of an actuall shoulder patch, in order to inspire me??

I think it's a good idea!! For the moment, I'll keep the national insignias I already drew for the second part of the scenario (the one with the coup d'état in a not so far future).
For the first part of the scenario, I'm just not sure about the back story...

Maybe something like Dragon describes, like a new special force. or maybe something like I thought initially: a new armed force for the USA (like US Army, USMC, USCG, US Navy, USCG etc...) named US Delta Corps, which is a combination of different Special Forces... But for that, I have to find some info about the real history of the US special forces, in order to change it at its begining

Whatever, the A-37B will have a scheme very similar to the Chinook one, I just love it!!    Moreover, it will be not so hard to do with hand painting
And for the markings, it will have the real US insignas, with maybe some big white or grey "Delta" (the symbol I put instead of the star in my roundel) painted under the wings  and the shoulder patch on the tail...

Hum... It could be very cool!!!


And for the insignias I already drew, I will use them in the Civil War scenario, maybe on a A-10C or a F-35B, don't know yet...  

[rallymodeller]

From a strictly technical standpoint, a Spec-Ops unit would have no use whatsoever for any kind of fast mover. If Spec-Ops people ever got into that kind of trouble, they'd be way in over their heads anyhow.

If the program were to be kept "black", more likely you would see foreign-sourced and commercially-available aircraft purchased, probably COIN types for close-support work. A-37's are a good choice, as are Pucaras, and posibly (perish the thought!) Su-25's. The strange mix of aircraft is actually prototypical as in the past CIA-supported operations saw planes like the Turbo-Porter used before they were even available in the US.  

[rallymodeller]

There was a RPG in the 80s calledTwillight 2000 where the USA had 3 governments in different areas of the continental US after WW3 caused a major breakdown in organisation. With the different factions not being overly fond of each other. (I know it was mainly set in Eastern Europe and Iran/Gulf initially). I know its still around as one of the armour sites has an almost annual group build based on it.

Yep -- after the Thanksgiving Attack of 1997 which basically destroyed the chain of command of the US military, there was Milgov (loyal to the JCS), Civgov (loyal to what was left of the civilian government) and New America (an ultra-right-wing fascist survivalist organization, wiped out by 2004). At least half of the game scenario books took place in North America, with some of the best (The Last Submarine, Warriors of the Night, Airlords of the Ozarks) in that category. I still have most of my material for that game including rulebooks for both editions, sourcebooks and most of the game modules. One of the best things about that game from my perspective is the amount of realism -- the only reason the government split was the nature of the nuclear attack and the timing of it -- coming two years after the start of the war and the final orders of the National Command Authority being very confusing and vague.

[Mossie]

Interresting idea!!
And for more interesting stuffs, we could be less... sure of what happen!!
I mean, I will probably not decide who was wrong and who was right!! With the two point of view beeing exposed, with no real evidence that a single side was right, it could be clearer to see that a Civil War is by definition pure madness!!

I like the idea of an opened ended scenario Pollux, as after all, as it's often so very difficult to say who's right & who's wrong in war.

If the program were to be kept "black", more likely you would see foreign-sourced and commercially-available aircraft purchased, probably COIN types for close-support work. A-37's are a good choice, as are Pucaras, and posibly (perish the thought!) Su-25's. The strange mix of aircraft is actually prototypical as in the past CIA-supported operations saw planes like the Turbo-Porter used before they were even available in the US.

In a 'black' ops scenario, you could quite easily use foregin aircraft.  Special Forces often use foreign equipment as part of 'plausible deniability'.  Each soldier tends to use whatever suits him best, so in this way they can look like mercanarys, that often use whatecver they can get hold of.  I guess you could therefore have a squad of mixed aircraft coming from several nations, with each pilot using whatever suited him/her.

[dragon]

It wouldn't be the first time a new Special Ops force was created (ficticious of course).  Examples can be found in old 1980's topics such as GI JOE and MEGAFORCE.  If you think about it, they too were special forces type entities.  

[NARSES2]

With Pollux's consent I've moved this subject as I think it sits better here in Alt Hist

Chris

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

I just up this thread in order to say that I planed to start the build of a A-37B for the Delta Force, circa 1990's... It will have a scheme very similar to the Chinook on first page of this thread.


I'll probably creat a in-progress topic in the other forum