Ekranoplan and WIG (Wing In Ground effect)

[Archibald]

Thread to discuss a soviet monster, the Lun WIG aircraft. This was armed with 6 Moskit ASM, could fly at 550 km/h, and was 74m long. Some photos of the beast
(from prototypes.com)

[Archibald]

More pics

[Mossie]

Ah, the Caspain Sea Monster!!!  What a beast!!!!!  I remember he first time I saw footage of Ekranoplans, I was amazed at their shear speed across water, as well as the size of the larger craft.

They always seemed to me to be the ultimate assault vessel.  Faster, larger & more easily controlled than a hovercraft, I've been suprised that they've never been taken on after the fall of the Soviet Union.  I don't know much about any potential weaknesses in the design, but the search for a fast ship has long been the holy grail of shipbuilders, maybe this is the key?

I remember hearing about the first time US Intelligence spotted it on satellite.  They assumed it was a partially assembelled flying boat prototype, with the majority of the wings yet to be fixed.  Of course they did, only a handful of people in Russia even knew of the concept.  It just seems so Russian, going about things in their own, unconvential way.  Their desgins often just seem bonkers, but every now & again they create something amazing that the West passed over or never even thought about.

Fantastic pics Archie, some Ekranoplan videos on YouTube for your enjoyment:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ekranoplan

[rallymodeller]

Trouble with the Ekranoplans (and I'm talking as a fan of WIG here) is that they were basically one-trick-ponies. This (and the original assault-transport version) were basically sesigned for operaions in the Black, Caspian and Baltic seas -- mosly calm, flat, and over short distances. Mind you, in those areas it would have excelled but even someplace like the Med they would have had trouble.

[Mossie]

Was this a weakness of WIG craft in general or purely those designed for the Caspian sea?  I vaguely remember hearing that some Ekranoplans could rise up several meters in the air to clear all but the worst seas, is there any truth to this?

[rallymodeller]

Was this a weakness of WIG craft in general or purely those designed for the Caspian sea?  I vaguely remember hearing that some Ekranoplans could rise up several meters in the air to clear all but the worst seas, is there any truth to this?

Well sure, but if you're talking the North Sea where they get 50-plus-foot waves and near hurricane-strength crosswinds that would make flying an aircraft over the wave tops a little intreresting. WIG depends on keeping the high-pressure "bubble" underneath the flying surfaces at all times and in really rough seas the bubble can't be maintained. Think of WIG as sort of a hovercraft with no skirts and you get the idea.

[Mossie]

Living very close to the east coast of England I can understand what you mean, the North Sea can get very nasty even in moderate winds, I remember near fearing for my life as my Dad fished at Hornsea one time, waves twice my height were crashing down.  My Dad just said it was good fishing weather!  Masochistic bunch these sea anglers! :dum:

I'm guessing that it's all about constant airflow, once the wind & sea start disrupting this the force that keeps the craft in the air dissapears.  If you get any higher, it needs to be an aeroplane.

[The Rat]

...if you're talking the North Sea where they get 50-plus-foot waves and near hurricane-strength crosswinds that would make flying an aircraft over the wave tops a little intreresting.

And even without waves you have swells to contend with, and they can be high too. You might be going up and down like a roller coaster even in seas that have no waves. Saw conditions like that off Cape Cod once, swells looked like they were a few kilometres apart, and the actual surface was almost as smooth as glass, hardly a ripple.

[Archibald]

Thanks for the comments! I know the obvious limitations of the WIG aircrafts, but this one was to cool (and the pics, too!). Aparently the missiles are huge Moskits ASM (another soviet megalomaniac atempt!).
I'm just trying to imagine this monster attacking the Enterprise or Nimitz, firing it's Moskits missiles at treetops  
would it be difficult for a Tomcat to intercept this kind of thing ? and if you send an AIM-54 Phoenix on this huge think, it is so big and has so much engines    ...
Something for Tom Clancy to imagine (mix "the sum of all fears" with "the hunt for red october"...)
It's not exactly the Caspian monster, more a little (??) brother of him...there was also the Orlyonork which was for assault...I remember an old Science&Vie from 1984 having an article on the subject, the illustration was of an Orlyonork...

[Mossie]

Thanks for all this info guys, this is coming from a guy who know's little about WIG but would like to know more, so feel free to fill any holes or errors that I come up with.  It's mostly conjecture on my part so the realaties are an education!

I would guess that the shear speed of the beast would cause problems in targeting.  A vessel with aircraft like speed yet operating just above the sea would require a new approach.  Fighters are geared up to attack fast moving targets at high altitudes, even with look down-shootdown capability an Ekranoplan might prove a problem.  Naval strike aircraft are geared up to attack slow moving targets on the surface.  There's no current system that's geared up to attack a very fast surface vessel, although I think it wouldn't be to diificult to find an effective counter.

Weather has always been a problem for any force, land sea or air so although WIG craft have their obvious limitations, they'd obviously have their uses too.  U-boats could submerge but had to spend a good part of their lives above surface, although this didn't stop them being a thorn in the side of allied shipping.

I could see them limited to attacks from fixed bases, similar to aircraft, waiting for a sufficent gap in the weather.  Then they'd pounce.  Can WIG craft operate like more conventional surface vessels?  In this way they would have more flexibility, transiting to an area as a 'ship', then using their full speed for attack.  Of course, you'd need support vessels or some sort of self sufficency to operate in this way.

Summing up, I guess it could be a very useful weapon, while operating within it's limitations.

[Archibald]

Hmmm I know the Tomcat could intercept cruise missiles (Ie quick, low-flying targets) but I'm asking how it could use this against a WIG aircraft...
We can imagine that the plane would be armoured to resist AAM, just like a flying battleship.  
Main problem with armour is it's weight of course, but WIG change things (and 300/ 400 tons is still reasonable)
Hmmm something interesting to dig...
- 6 turbofans to have sufficient power (and less vulnerability to Infra-red AAMs)
- around 400 tons, most of it beeing armor against AAM and SAM
- 4 Brahmos ASM in a dorsal missiles launchers (maybe retractable ?)
- speed around 600 km/h at low level
- powerfull ECM

[grayman]

I wonder if you could target onbe with a Harpoon or Exocet   (although I imagine that the plane would be too quick).

[Archibald]

that's really an interesting thought, Grayman!
Hmm my idea is more precise now. In fact the Ekranoplan could be a lind of flying battleship. here's some ideas (already mentioned, but it's a summary)

- actual big turbofans have low IR signature (because 90% of the exhaust plume is cold air)
- If the A-380 and An-225 weight around 600 tons, maybe a WIG can reach around 1000 tons or so
- so we can reintroduce a valuable armor on aircrafts
- More, actual AAMs have to shot light aircrafts, less armored and quick (mainly fighters)
- Airliners are quite resistant to AAM for various reasons (bigger size, engines in separated nacelles, and the like)
- Heavies AAM are less fashionable those days (the AIM-54 had been withdrawn without replacement) and their speed is more important that the explosive load (but you need a BIG explosive load to damage an armored vehicle)
- Armor had much progressed for decades (reactive armor for example)
- there's a gap in the missile defenses of ships, which are conceived to shoot quick aircrafts,cruise missiles, surface vessels or submarines... but not WIG aircrafts combining some factors of all this.

What can we use to shoot down a WIG aircraft attacking the CDG (hey, it the only carrier France have!!!)


- ASTER. hmmm this is due to shoot cruise missiles (Ie light small and quick). good agility, but small explosive device... you need a lot of them to kill the Ekranoplan...

- Rafale with MICA
once again, conceived to kill aircrafts, light explosive warhead. Maybe with it's full load of Mica, it can cripple the attacker... not sure...

- Exocets
Their targeting sensors are conceived for slow surface vessels... difficult to target a 550km/h ship...

[lancer]

Despite all the potential shortcomings of the WIG, I love the Caspian Sea Monster. Amazing looking machine.  

[Mossie]

How about airborne or shipborne lasers?  The ABL is useful against very fast moving targets, presumably it can hit surface targets too, at least with some modification?

The Royal Navy has been rumoured to have been carrying laser weapons on their ships to blind pilots & confuse sensors.  A shipborne version of the ABL that can destroy targets is not outside the realms of possibility.

Anti ship missiles would probably still be an adequate defence.  Any changes required would probably be software based, although this doesn't mean it would be simple.

Of course, in order to defend your ship you only need to nullify it's weaponary, not neccesarily the platform (although that is the most satisfacory result).  So current countermeasures would remain useful.

The Australian Metalstorm guns will probably become very useful for missile defence.  Able to loose off 1 million rounds per minute (I kid you not) with little recoil & engage three seperate targets in around a second, it can put a wall of lead up against the most determined missile attack.  A 40mm version has just been put into production & the intention is to convert most gun based weapons to this technology.  Useful to have have when piitted against an Ekranoplan missile cruiser.  Also the ability to put round after round in exactly the same spot will render most armour ineffective.