Arrow cannon options?

[Phnx28]

I've searched a while to make sure I'm not treading on a graveyard topic here, but I think I'm safe so far. It's design as a missile-focused interceptor notwithstanding, what options for cannon armament might in-service Arrow Mk.2 or such feature towards the '70s? I highly doubt the Canadian (and probably British too, since Arrows are the next best thing to a Delta III if you can't get that, alas... ) government(s) would simply ignore Vietnam and Six-Day war experience indicating the usefulness of even podded plinkers. This goes double given the Arrow's known maneuverability potential. (Which other aircraft of the time could pull 2g @ Mach 1.5 and 50K feet? None? That's right... )
My personal guesses: CF-105s proper might go best with the Project Sharpshooter M61 pod as on the F-106, since the Hughes/Falcon weapon system was the interim option following ASTRA/Sparrow II's demise, and we all know the tendency of interim solutions to become permanent solutions by simple inertia. British Arrow Mk.2s are trickier; my favorite is an Aden/Fuel belly pack like the Lightning F.6 got, but I imagine that might need careful arranging since I prefer internal carriage of my ideal Red Top and Blue Dolphin combination for RAF Arrows. (Unless you can somehow squeeze Red Hebe in there...)

[rallymodeller]

A "Sharpshooter" pod or a podded SUU-23 are the most likely options -- remember, the Arrow had a centerline pylon. But also remember, the Arrow was concieved in an era when guns on planes was simply passe. Even the venerable CF-100 (in it's Mk. 5 guise) lost it's eight 0.50" M3's.  

[Archibald]

Something interesting could be grafting a Jag gun on the side of the cockpit. In the Revell Jag I changed into a P.146, the two guns were separated of the fuselage,  I mean there is two rectangular small blocks to glue below the cockpit. I still got one if you are interested...
cheers

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Podded guns on the Arrow?  Not a good idea as it would not be anywhere near as accurate as an internally mounted weapon.  This was something that was relearned during the first Gulf War when the NYANG took the 30mm gun pod to war and found that they could not hit anything effectively with it so it was ditched and they ended up carrying normal loads of cluster bombs which had better results.  

Internally mounted gun is the way to go.  Make it a semi-exposed weapon like that done on the F-106 or carve out a nice recess on the side similar to the F-104, F-105, A-7, or F-14.  

[Mossie]

Harriers have had contstant problems with their Aden's aswell & it took a long time to rectify.  They we're still trying to sort it out with the Harrier II, although this may have had something to do with the transfer over to the 25mm weapon.

[elmayerle]

Project Sharpshooter mods seem the most likely since the M61 would be readily available and a different pallet for the weapons bay would be a fairly simple move.  The requisite fuselage changes would be of a comparatively simple nature, too, to add this option to the aircraft's capabilities.  I would expect the cannon to be placed on the centerline, leaving two missile bays still open for use.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

There was a fellow in Minnesota that was doing a resin conversion part for the F-106 gun installation.  Not sure if he is still in business or not but his product line was called Missing Link and most of his stuff was a simple cavity mold with minimal recesses.  The gun modification was pretty nice looking but the details for the gun gas vents was a bit hard to see.  Other than that, I wish I had purchased a dozen of them instead of the one that I have.   


***Update*** The guy is still in business.  I was able to acquire a quantity of these fine quality and very affordable resin products recently.

[Archibald]

Internally mounted gun is the way to go.

Make it a semi-exposed weapon like that done on the F-106 or carve out a nice recess on the side similar to the F-104, F-105, A-7, or F-14.

This is roughly how I imagined the thing
I would say a gun below the air intake, maybe something similar to the Mirages ?  

[elmayerle]

Internally mounted gun is the way to go.

Make it a semi-exposed weapon like that done on the F-106 or carve out a nice recess on the side similar to the F-104, F-105, A-7, or F-14.

This is roughly how I imagined the thing
I would say a gun below the air intake, maybe something similar to the Mirages ?

Ah, but with that removeable/replaceable weapons bay, it makes lots more sense to have a pallet with that option rather than do major structural changes to install a cannon elsewhere - it's also far easier to sell to the politicians.

[lancer]

How about a pir of underwing 12lb's. Modified to be breach loaders instead of muzzle loaders...        

Apologies, I'm in a funny kind of mood this morning.  

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Ah, but with that removeable/replaceable weapons bay, it makes lots more sense to have a pallet with that option rather than do major structural changes to install a cannon elsewhere - it's also far easier to sell to the politicians.

Or better yet, develop the aircraft WITH a cannon or at least have the airframe strengthened in the right spaces for a cannon so it can be added later.  

Considering what was done on the F-4D to modify it to carry a gun as the F-4E, the engineering problems were not such an insurmountable task.  Not exactly backyard auto-mechanics and souping up a car but still, it was done quickly and the end result gave the Phantom another option for targets.

So all of you engineers need to get together and develop a secret handshake and come to a universal agreement that all fighter type aircraft need a gun whether the tax paying public or the politicians want one or not.  

[viper29_ca]

In the late 50's when the Arrow was rolled out, how about a pair of 20mm cannons, one each where the wing and the fuselage meet, something similar to the F-15.

Once the 20mm vulcan was a normality on aircraft, the 20mm cannons would be replaced by a pair of vulcans.

Talk about a hell of a strafing platform!!!!


I would have said a pair of 30mm Gatling guns like that on the A-10.....but that came later in the Mk.7 Arrow, dedicated CAS platform!! LOL

[elmayerle]

Ah, but with that removeable/replaceable weapons bay, it makes lots more sense to have a pallet with that option rather than do major structural changes to install a cannon elsewhere - it's also far easier to sell to the politicians.

Or better yet, develop the aircraft WITH a cannon or at least have the airframe strengthened in the right spaces for a cannon so it can be added later.  

Considering what was done on the F-4D to modify it to carry a gun as the F-4E, the engineering problems were not such an insurmountable task.  Not exactly backyard auto-mechanics and souping up a car but still, it was done quickly and the end result gave the Phantom another option for targets.

So all of you engineers need to get together and develop a secret handshake and come to a universal agreement that all fighter type aircraft need a gun whether the tax paying public or the politicians want one or not.

Well, the Arrow design that existed is what I'm working from and ,really, the wepons bay pallet for a M61 is no different in concept from the one that put a M61 on the F-111 when needed.

From a lot of standpoints, especially given the replaceable/interchangeable weapons bay pods on the Arrow, incorporating a gun that way makes a lot of technical sense, too.

As to always incorporating a gun, we still have to deal with what our customers ask for - however much we may disagree with their choices.

[Phnx28]

How about a pir of underwing 12lb's. Modified to be breach loaders instead of muzzle loaders...        

Apologies, I'm in a funny kind of mood this morning.

No problem; that actually fits with how one opinionated MacLean's editor proclaimed manned aircraft (with the Arrow as his direct target) "as obsolete as the musket" compared to guided missiles back in the day. Seriously though, how large or small could a twin Aden pack a la the Lightnings be made for the British Arrows' weapons bay? I figured the Sharpshooter would work best for Canuck birds given the M39 on the CF-5/116 Freedom Fighters and the M61 on CF-104s; keeping the same ammunition chain and all.
But these British Arrows are entering service in place of the F-4M, although the Royal Navy's still probably getting F-4Ks (so as not to introduce too many variables into the whiff), hence the RAF would likely prefer to keep the 30mm ADEN as used on available pod configurations so as to avoid having to use (RAF Officer: "Egads! ") Navy ammo. I am intrigued by Archie's various French-style proposals like on the Jaguar; once I find good blank Arrow three-views I'll probably draw up some of each of these ideas in Sierra Image Expert or something.

[jcf]

Once the 20mm vulcan was a normality on aircraft, the 20mm cannons would be replaced by a pair of vulcans.

While it may have become the "norm" on US aircraft, Gatling-type cannon did not become the norm across the pond so assuming an M61 for the Arrow is a bit of a leap.
Given that non-Canadian sales would be desirable the concept of palelletized weapons makes the most sense, ya want a coupla Aden but still want some missile capability? We gotcha covered, ditto DEFAs, Vulcans or whatever your choice of gun.
Ground attack and recce pallets would also be a good move.


Cheers, Jon