Avro Arrow - the truth revealed!

[GeorgeC]

I was trawling e-Bay for cheap kits (like you do)  and came across this - everything you wanted to know about the real story behind the CF-105...

click here

I haven't checked if he has a model of the TSR2 interceptor for sale as well.  

[CanisD]

o...k... So the entire Canadian aerospace industry was a decoy for Lockheed?

I still like the story that Avro was so riddled with Soviet agents that they shut it down. The result: The Mig-25 Strella (NATO codename Fibber)

[John Howling Mouse]

o...k... So the entire Canadian aerospace industry was a decoy for Lockheed?

Well, most of their design team did migrate south and ended creating the F-102 and F-106, didn't they?

 

[jcf]

o...k... So the entire Canadian aerospace industry was a decoy for Lockheed?

Well, most of their design team did migrate south and ended creating the F-102 and F-106, didn't they?

Bit of a chronological problem with that theory...unless they had also developed a time-machine.

Wait a minute was that the "true purpose" of the Avrocar? Timetravel? Had to be somethin' as it didn't work worth a damn as a flying machine.


Cheers, Jon  

[Captain Canada]

Wait a minute was that the "true purpose" of the Avrocar? Timetravel? Had to be somethin' as it didn't work worth a damn as a flying machine.

It was designed as a way to get to the beer store quicker...as far as I know.

That story is hilarious ! Makes me want to buy it !

 

[Phnx28]

Just enough of the truth to get the blood going, combined with shameless "ZOMG! Teh C14 1s an 0mn1p0t3ntz0r Ub3r-l337 5py 4g3ncy of DH00M!" nationalist conspiracy theory; of the kind that gives real skeptical inquiry/conspiracy theory like investigaton of Deep Throat or 'Seventies scandals such as Koreagate a bad name by association (hell, I'm an American living in the town responsible for the bulk of the Manhattan Project and I find this salesman's theory infantile... ).
Although it's true paranoia in the Diefenbaker Government over both the known and feared presence of KGB (and Lavochkin? I thought I read in some aviation history magazine article, which in retrospect I really should've bought immediately, that the main spy in Avro was also a Lavochkin OKB employee whose data later had a moderate role in assisting design of the abortive P-1 interceptor.) spies in Avro was probably the key reason destruction of all Arrow-related assets was so needlessly ruthless, I'm wary of theories that take the old 'Strategy of Tension' quite so far as is done here since it tends to fly in the face of 'Ye Olde Lawe (sic) of Unintended Consequences,' as would be said in the Bard's time. Equally, as the various extremist groups employing it usually find out when the enemy dictatorship their use of said strategy brings to power simply crushes them outright rather than inciting the general public to sympathetic revolt.
Entertaining? Yes , in the morbidly appealing Dilbert sort of way. The kicker is I could actually see old CIA veterans such as James "World War IV" Woolsey convincing themselves of this propaganda. Canis D's extrapolation of the 'Russian Arrow' idea hinted at in the rant to an alternate MiG-25 'Fibber' is classic work. ^_^

[Jschmus]

Lavochkin P-1?  Never heard of that one, but I did find this on the internet:

In 1954 Ministry of Aviation Industry requested studies of a new fighter, called 'P' - Perekhvatchik-Interceptor, aircraft armed with ever combination of guns, rockets and missiles, and with nine types of afterburning turbojet.  And next year January 19 the Council of Ministers ordered from Sukhoi prototype P-1 powered by single AL-9.  Construction of P-1 was authorised after review of mock up early 1956.  Aircraft was tested during couple of years and after P-1 was transferred to experimental category.

Looks like an evolutionary step towards the Su-15.

[nev]

For the newer guys, is you do a search, there is a very long post by Gary on the subject of the Arrow cancellation - he did his university thesis on it.

[ysi_maniac]

o...k... So the entire Canadian aerospace industry was a decoy for Lockheed?

I still like the story that Avro was so riddled with Soviet agents that they shut it down. The result: The Mig-25 Strella (NATO codename Fibber)

A beaty,          sure!!

[kitnut617]

o...k... So the entire Canadian aerospace industry was a decoy for Lockheed?

I still like the story that Avro was so riddled with Soviet agents that they shut it down. The result: The Mig-25 Strella (NATO codename Fibber)

Now that's really interesting, someone's been peeking in my projects room    

This follows my thinking on what a Mk.4 would have looked like, only I've stuck with the single fin but made the area of it bigger.  I've change the forward fuselage to still resemble an Arrow too.  Also I've increased the outer wing area with a typical Avro solution by kinking the leading edge out-board the leading edge slot.

But I'm afraid you will all have to wait for a couple of months before I can show you some photos of it as it has been packed away.

But you can see a hint of it in this photo, you can see the tail and some part of the wing just under the Concorde:

http://groups.msn.com/TheWhatifandoddballm...to&PhotoID=2051

Robert

[Phnx28]

Lavochkin P-1?  Never heard of that one, but I did find this on the internet:

In 1954 Ministry of Aviation Industry requested studies of a new fighter, called 'P' - Perekhvatchik-Interceptor, aircraft armed with ever combination of guns, rockets and missiles, and with nine types of afterburning turbojet.  And next year January 19 the Council of Ministers ordered from Sukhoi prototype P-1 powered by single AL-9.  Construction of P-1 was authorised after review of mock up early 1956.  Aircraft was tested during couple of years and after P-1 was transferred to experimental category.

Looks like an evolutionary step towards the Su-15.

My mistake. I was probably thinking of both the Sukhoi P-1 and the Lavochkin La-250 Anakonda prototypes at the same time prior to confabulating them into one project somehow. Figures; I have a tendency to do that at the most embarassing possible times, such as the night of my Senior Prom...:dum: I intended the La-250 AFAIK, since that supposedly had some loose Arrow influences if I remember my sources correctly.

[viper29_ca]

Yeah I looked at this auction, not really for the subject as I have a bunch of them already, but more for his slander against the Arrow. I sent him a commment which read like this:

Nice kit, as I have about 3 of them, too bad you didn't do your homework on the history and legacy of the Avro Arrow, you may have found some newfound respect for the best and most advanced aircraft of its day. Even by today's standards, there are very few aircraft that can match and exceed what the Avro Arrow could do!!!

I just got an answer back this morning from him, here is what he had to say:

It is great propaganda, you as well as the Russian's fell for it! As most of the airframes were trucked in pieces to Buffalo for certain destruction, do you not wonder why we didn't say... scrap a couple super sabres in their place and put those planes back together? Saab 20 years later solved a serious control problem with the introduction of a canard...just do some research and you'll dig all this up for yourself, you might start with examining an aircraft with such a large delta wing area, and why it positively sucks when you approach mach 1...have you ever considered at such speed what the stress there would be to attempt a 10 degree inclination...that's why the Starfighter came into being...it had less resistance, drag, and it has supersonic maneuverability, without being ripped to pieces. The Arrow did an amazing job without flying, it helped us win the Cold War, by exposing all the Russian spies and spy networks, which we then manipulated for many years. Library has many books on the formation of SAC and CIA, the U2 and the SR71, the Hustler, and the x projects and mysterious Area 51...you can piece together the Arrow by researching here, and as always...Follow The Money! Canada was and is still back on the farm, they never had the kind of post war national capitol product to fund such an aircraft, they did however before Trudeau's socialists believe in fighting communism. The truth about the Avro Arrow is simply amazing, what it actually achieved, but a good aircraft, it was not, because it was intended for the Russians to copy and waste resources on. There is a possibility that somewhere in Russia as they seem to not scrap all their experimental aircraft, that decaying in a muddy field with a bunch of rejected Antonov, Mig, Topolev, projects are several Arrowskies...perhaps Canada can ask their communist buddies for one to display in Ottawa!
The aerodynamics of an F4 Phantom is better than an Arrow, and they weren't anything like an F18!
TFT

This guy is obviously dilusional, and has no idea as to the ability and history of the Arrow.

He also has no bids on it as of yet.....too bad.....and his shipping is crazy!!!! $26US Economy post from Dallas to NB???  

[Ian the Kiwi Herder]

Not trying to hi-jack the thread - no really I'm not - but whilst I've seen a few ARROWS here, I'm surprised there aren't more.... shame, it's a beautiful machine.

Just a thought.

Ian

[dragon]

Yeah I looked at this auction, not really for the subject as I have a bunch of them already, but more for his slander against the Arrow. I sent him a commment which read like this:

Nice kit, as I have about 3 of them, too bad you didn't do your homework on the history and legacy of the Avro Arrow, you may have found some newfound respect for the best and most advanced aircraft of its day. Even by today's standards, there are very few aircraft that can match and exceed what the Avro Arrow could do!!!

I just got an answer back this morning from him, here is what he had to say:

It is great propaganda, you as well as the Russian's fell for it! As most of the airframes were trucked in pieces to Buffalo for certain destruction, do you not wonder why we didn't say... scrap a couple super sabres in their place and put those planes back together? Saab 20 years later solved a serious control problem with the introduction of a canard...just do some research and you'll dig all this up for yourself, you might start with examining an aircraft with such a large delta wing area, and why it positively sucks when you approach mach 1...have you ever considered at such speed what the stress there would be to attempt a 10 degree inclination...that's why the Starfighter came into being...it had less resistance, drag, and it has supersonic maneuverability, without being ripped to pieces. The Arrow did an amazing job without flying, it helped us win the Cold War, by exposing all the Russian spies and spy networks, which we then manipulated for many years. Library has many books on the formation of SAC and CIA, the U2 and the SR71, the Hustler, and the x projects and mysterious Area 51...you can piece together the Arrow by researching here, and as always...Follow The Money! Canada was and is still back on the farm, they never had the kind of post war national capitol product to fund such an aircraft, they did however before Trudeau's socialists believe in fighting communism. The truth about the Avro Arrow is simply amazing, what it actually achieved, but a good aircraft, it was not, because it was intended for the Russians to copy and waste resources on. There is a possibility that somewhere in Russia as they seem to not scrap all their experimental aircraft, that decaying in a muddy field with a bunch of rejected Antonov, Mig, Topolev, projects are several Arrowskies...perhaps Canada can ask their communist buddies for one to display in Ottawa!
The aerodynamics of an F4 Phantom is better than an Arrow, and they weren't anything like an F18!
TFT

This guy is obviously dilusional, and has no idea as to the ability and history of the Arrow.

He also has no bids on it as of yet.....too bad.....and his shipping is crazy!!!! $26US Economy post from Dallas to NB???

The guy probably worries every day about Men in Black knocking on his door and Black Helicopters circling above his house.  Might have to do with that alien anal implant or something...He will be okay if you show him how to make an aluminum foil hat (to block those Government brain waves).

However, you've got to admit it is awesome fiction, perhaps even worthy of an ALTERNATE HISTORY thread.    

[Alvis 3.1]

Ah yes, the infamous MiG Arrowski...now WHERE have I seen THAT before?

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Fea1.../mig_e-3888.jpg


Wow, what a nutcake! Then again, being as he's from Dallas, I'm sure he's fully immersed in so many conspiracy theories that he can't discern reality from fiction.

I find it particilarly galling he'd insinuate that us dumb Canucks couldn't design, fund, build, fly, and then scrap an aircraft perfectly capable of flying the pants off of any American design at the time (Except for the SR-71 of course) without it all being run by the "Great Secret Agencies of the South"

Moron.



Alvis 3.1