what if more Rafale's were exported

[Archibald]

...and India !!!

[GTX]

You forget your own country GTX (Australia unsure.gif ?)! It's time to replace that's good old F-18A... happy.gif (albeit the Rafale lack range to replace the F-111s sad.gif )

No I didn't - it's just that after some of the RAAF Rafales created by Richard (see here) and others (here's another), I didn't think a RAAF one need to be shown again.

Regards,

Greg

[Hobbes]

You forget your own country GTX (Australia   ?)! It's time to replace that's good old F-18A...  ^_^ (albeit the Rafale lack range to replace the F-111s )

Time for a scaled-up Rafale (sort of like the Super Hornet, or the Mirage 4000)?

[david sMiGielski]

<ahem>

[Iranian F-14A]

What about an Iraqi Rafale? Or maybe one from Israel?

[GTX]

I do have an Israeli Rafale on the planned list (along with an Israeli Mirage 2000) - I'm working on the idea that the Israelis never broke with France (in other words probaboly never stole the Mirage plans and create the Kfir) for aircraft and continued to use thier products through to the current day.

Regards,

Greg

[Son of Damian]

The Rafale would be a great replacement for Brazil's ageing Skyhawks, isn't the Hornet to big to operate off of Sao Paulo? Brazil has bought French before, Mirage III, and now they are leasing some Mirage 2000's, so buying the Rafale for the Navy is only natural.    

[nev]

I do have an Israeli Rafale on the planned list (along with an Israeli Mirage 2000) - I'm working on the idea that the Israelis never broke with France (in other words probaboly never stole the Mirage plans and create the Kfir) for aircraft and continued to use thier products through to the current

I always thought the break was due to Israel starting the 6-day war?

[Archibald]

Breaking of the relations is a complex story. Main reason was De Gaulle knew that France badly need Arab oil, and could no longer stand Israel.
He had anticipated the scenario of the 1973 crisis...which plumbed the occidental world economy.

aparently the moment were the relations were "broken" was around December 1968, when the Israelis destroyed Lebanese airliners on Beyruth airport (with eeerhm french weapons).  This was too much for De Gaulle, so the embargo was setup.

No I didn't - it's just that after some of the RAAF Rafales created by Richard (see here) and others (here's another), I didn't think a RAAF one need to be shown again.

Regards,

Greg

It seems more logical now  

Love the idea of Rafale and 2000 in IDF markings.

The Rafale prototype had been tested on the Foch in 1993 (in fact he made it's first naval landing on this carrier)  but the catapult are tired and too short(50m against 75m for the CdG, or 90m for an american carrier)  limiting a Rafale to 18-20 tons MTOW. This mean no A2G loads nor external fuel tanks, justs AAMs...

Iraq was aparently interested by the 2000 in the late 80's (until Russians proposed cheap MiG-29 instead). Of course, no GW1 mean rafales in the long term (damn, the last F1EQ-7 were delivered in 1989 or so, no too far from GW1
beginning      :dum:

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

The Rafale would be a great replacement for Brazil's ageing Skyhawks, isn't the Hornet to big to operate off of Sao Paulo? Brazil has bought French before, Mirage III, and now they are leasing some Mirage 2000's, so buying the Rafale for the Navy is only natural.

The Rafale and the Hornet can't fully operate from the Sao Paulo...

The Sao Paulo needs a complete refit for that and maybe with just more powerfull catapults and the 9t powerfull engines of the Rafale, it could work, but I'm not sure...
Modernisation of the A-4, Indian LCA, second-hand AV-8B or even former French Navy modernised Super Etendard could be an interim solution... After that, whatever happen, the Brazilian will have to replace the Sao Paulo or totally refit it!! So, at this time, Rafale M will be possible!!

But well, for the Brazilian Air Force, Rafale seams to be a very plausible choice: Dassault owns something like 8% of Embraer and they could prabably buy more parts of the Brazilian society in exchange of a Brazilian production line for the Rafale



And for the other export possibilities, the Rafale will compete for Swiss, Greece, Qatar and Morocco! For me, those countries are good possibilities for the French aircraft.

[Son of Damian]

The Sao Paulo needs a complete refit for that and maybe with just more powerfull catapults and the 9t powerfull engines of the Rafale, it could work, but I'm not sure...
Modernisation of the A-4, Indian LCA, second-hand AV-8B or even former French Navy modernised Super Etendard could be an interim solution... After that, whatever happen, the Brazilian will have to replace the Sao Paulo or totally refit it!!

So why did Brazil buy Sao Paulo if in a decade or less it's air component would be totally obsolete and it isn't big enough to have modern aircraft operate from her? They could have put the money toward an aircraft carrier like De Gaulle or Kitty Hawk and got a half centuries worth of service out her at least, over a century with upgrades and modern aircraft.  

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

So why did Brazil buy Sao Paulo if in a decade or less it's air component would be totally obsolete and it isn't big enough to have modern aircraft operate from her? They could have put the money toward an aircraft carrier like De Gaulle or Kitty Hawk and got a half centuries worth of service out her at least, over a century with upgrades and modern aircraft.

Well, they bought it for different reason:

-Why a carrier? Because they wanted to have a good oceanic fleet, and moreover they wanted to be the first fleet in south america!
-Why not a De Gaulle or a kitty Hawk?? Because it would have cost at least 30 or 50 times what the Sao Paulo cost to them!!!

And well, the Sao Paulo with its S-2, A-4 and helicopters is still as good and sometimes better than one of the British/Italian/Spanish/Thai/Indian carriers!

The fact is that even if they keep the Sao Paulo in service only 15 years, ithe deal still was cost efficient, due to the very low price of the thing.

And don't forget that the Brazilian and Argentinian Navy use it mainly as a trainer carrier!! They want to maintain their capacity in operate a carrier, and they want to keep their pilotes able to operate from a carrier.

In the next 15 or 20 years, the Brazilian Navy will have different possibilities for its carrier options... and those possibilities will probably depend on what they will chose for their next Air Force fighter!! Rafale M, Mig-29K, Indian LCA or F-35B are the possible solutions...
Here are the solutions for the BN in the future:

-Modernised the Sao Paulo with new electronic and combat systems, giving it 20 or 30 more years of service, but no major modifications of the catapults.
Modernised Super Etendard, Skyhawk, Harrier or LCA will be the only combat aircrafts able to operate from it.

-Use the Sao Paulo as a base for a largely modified carrier, with new and longer catapults (for Rafale, F-35C or Hornet) or even a ski jump (if F-35B, LCA, Harrier or Mig-29K are chosen), new comunications and combat electronic systems, maybe a new propulsion system etc...
It could be a credible refit, similar to the refit done by the British and US WWII carrier that were still operationnal in the 1970's... But it will be more expensive than the first solution, and there are much more industrial risks than with the following solution.
That's the solution chosen by the Indian Navy, from an old Russian cruiser/heli-carrier.

-Buy a totally new aircraft carrier!! A light carrier could be buil by France, Spain or India for a reasonnable cost, but it will be more expensive than the previous solution, even if it will be much more adapted if we look 30 or 40 years long...
Such a carrier could operate Rafale, Hornet, LCA or Mig-29, depending on the constructor...



But for my part, I think we could imagine another solution for exporting the Rafale: having a new variant of it!!
Just imagine a Rafale with the M88-4 engines (9,5t thrust instead of 7,5 each!!) or even a new M88-5, able to thrust until 10t or 11t for the take off phase, a new jumping front landing gear, and you could have a Rafale able to operate from ski jump equiped carrier, just like the Su-33 or the Mig-29K!!

It could appears just in time to equiped the new carrier planed to b build all arround the world (Europe, China, India + the export customers)

India and Brazil could be the launch customers, later followed by China (when the embargo on military sell will collapse) and why not Spain? They use a carrier and they don't have a plan yet for replacing it, right??

[Archibald]

They also use the Sao Paulo at a much lower rate, simply because missions and funding of the Brasilian navy are much reduced compared to the French navy. The vzessel is aimed at a local role, not worlwide (war or peacekeeping) as France used it. The limited role and mission of a carrier in the Brasilian navy can be fulfilled by an old but still potent boat...  

[anthonyp]

So why did Brazil buy Sao Paulo if in a decade or less it's air component would be totally obsolete and it isn't big enough to have modern aircraft operate from her?

They're secretly working with the British and Boeing to develop the single seat A-45 Naval Hawk light attack aircraft!!  

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

They're secretly working with the British and Boeing to develop the single seat A-45 Naval Hawk light attack aircraft!!

Héhé!!
I already did this one in the Harrier II/Skyhawk topic

But well, I agree, that's a very good idea!!
A naval Hawk 100 or 200, the twin seater with laser designator, FLIR and nav systems in the nose in order to operate GBUs, and the single seater with a light AESA radar for air-air missions!!

But well, we're out topic here!!





Back to the Rafale, rumors talk about the Rafale beeing very well positioned in Brazil and Libya, but also in Greece (where it has to face the Typhoon), Qatar (vs US fighters) and Morocco (but not for today!!     )

As far as I'm concerned, I would like to see at least one of these country buying the Rafale, just because I'll love to see it in a desert scheme, or in one of those beautiful scheme the Brazilian F-5 and the Greek -4 have!!