Subsonic fighters carrying long range AAM

[rallymodeller]

Most of the post Mk-5 proposals for the CF-100 were centered around missiles. In fact, there was a Mark 5 prototype series (the 5M, about eight converted) that was wired for Sparrow II missiles. The main reason for this was that even as early as 1954 it was realized that CF-100s didn't have enough of a speed advantage over bombers in the B-52/Tu-20 class to be able to intercept them effectively; the Clunk was originally designed to splash bombers of the Tu-4/B-29/B-50 class. So giving a Mach 2 missile to the CF would have made it beter able to do the interception mission.

I thought they were aimed at CF-105 equipment testbed only ? (not operational aircrafts)
A variant of the concept is the supersonic bomber / airliner changed into an ultra-long-range interceptor. I heard in "secret projects" that a Tu-160 variant had been considered with a MiG-31 weapon system (and a B-1 with Phoenix)

There's some fascinating ideas on this thread (as usual on this forum) particularly the Nimrod "flying AAM arsenal"    or the Vulcan phoenix carrier    

While the 5M was origianlly designed specifically for the Arrow trials, once the Arrow project was on the rocks Avro proposed a "kit" that would fit out the "regular" Mk 5's to this standard. The ultimate late development would have been the proposed Mk 8, with a redesigned nose to house a new 32"-36" radar dish, standard Mk 4 wings, either afterburning Orenda 11R's or Bristol BE-61s and wingtip (!) rails for the stillborn Eagle missile.

[retro_seventies]

i read that in the late seventies a variant of the tupolev tu-22 (blinder) had been slated to enter service as a long range heavy interceptor.

[Phnx28]

Quite probably. Soviet interceptor conversions of bombers were legion, with the Tu-28/128 Fiddler and Yak-28P Firebar actually seeing service after conversion from the rejected (ironically in favor of the Yak-28 Brewer IIRC) Tu-98 Backfin and Yak-28 Brewer, respectively. The most radical idea was probably the Tu-160P ("Flapjack," anyone? )  that Archie mentioned and summarized accurately enough AFAIK. My Tu-16P/HJ-6 was the only thing I could think of that was bigger than the Yak-25 missile conversions as of yet, but I think that was just my idea recalling what Badger variant histories I know of offhand.
A Phoenix-armed Bone? Most kewl. B) I've read about the Tu-160P in an old World Air Power issue or such before, but I haven't heard of this yet even though it of course makes sense.

[Archibald]

Most of the post Mk-5 proposals for the CF-100 were centered around missiles. In fact, there was a Mark 5 prototype series (the 5M, about eight converted) that was wired for Sparrow II missiles. The main reason for this was that even as early as 1954 it was realized that CF-100s didn't have enough of a speed advantage over bombers in the B-52/Tu-20 class to be able to intercept them effectively; the Clunk was originally designed to splash bombers of the Tu-4/B-29/B-50 class. So giving a Mach 2 missile to the CF would have made it beter able to do the interception mission.

I thought they were aimed at CF-105 equipment testbed only ? (not operational aircrafts)
A variant of the concept is the supersonic bomber / airliner changed into an ultra-long-range interceptor. I heard in "secret projects" that a Tu-160 variant had been considered with a MiG-31 weapon system (and a B-1 with Phoenix)

There's some fascinating ideas on this thread (as usual on this forum) particularly the Nimrod "flying AAM arsenal"    or the Vulcan phoenix carrier    

While the 5M was origianlly designed specifically for the Arrow trials, once the Arrow project was on the rocks Avro proposed a "kit" that would fit out the "regular" Mk 5's to this standard. The ultimate late development would have been the proposed Mk 8, with a redesigned nose to house a new 32"-36" radar dish, standard Mk 4 wings, either afterburning Orenda 11R's or Bristol BE-61s and wingtip (!) rails for the stillborn Eagle missile.

thanks for the explanations, rally! I red that the mk8 proposal was circa june 1959 (and was rejected, of course...)
Hmm I'm thinking... what about a CF-100 with Starfighter-like wings ? I mean, very thin, shorter span...with afterburning Orenda engines, could this plane been supersonic ?
Yes, it was the Tu-160P (but I can't remember where I saw the Phoenix-armed Bone   )
Someone have the Bendix Eagle dimensions and weight? were they as monstruous as the Red Hebe ?  

[simmie]

I see no mention of the fact that Nimrod got wired for sidewinders before deploying to the Falklands in 82.

[Archibald]

That was just for self defense but interesting comment (and a Nimrod killing a Skyhawk would be cool, really!)
Always thought that the Mirage IV c ould have made a terrific long range fighter, in Tu-128 style. Load it with 4 recessed R-530, some sidewinders in wing pylons, a conformal tank instead of the AN-52, two drop tanks underwings. Cyrano radar borrowed to the Mirage IIIC or Mirage F1C  

[Maverick]

One idea that started here & i bastardized it to hell & back was using low hour B-1B Lancers as AIM-120/54 carriers...imagine the loadout.. wouldn't really matter who the hell they were up against... Chinese, Iraqiranians, whoever... their FlankCrums would be that much scrap metal

[dy031101]

I thought about F6D recently and started wondering about this:

There are other competitors for the program...... on what ground was F6D selected over other entries (a question, not a disagreement)?

Thanks in advance to whoever can provide an answer.

[Weaver]

That was just for self defense but interesting comment (and a Nimrod killing a Skyhawk would be cool, really!)
Always thought that the Mirage IV c ould have made a terrific long range fighter, in Tu-128 style. Load it with 4 recessed R-530, some sidewinders in wing pylons, a conformal tank instead of the AN-52, two drop tanks underwings. Cyrano radar borrowed to the Mirage IIIC or Mirage F1C  

Not entirely: part of the idea was that they'd go after the Argentine Boeing 707s that were shadowing British ship movements south of Ascension. The Sea Harriers had kept them away from the carriers, of course, but once the latter were committed down south, all other ships making the transit (either way) had no such cover.

[Lawman]

The US Coast Guard fitted some of their P-3 Orions with the APG-63 radar from the F-15, for tracking drug traffickers. The RAF could have done something similar, during the Cold War, to allow longer duration escort of Russian bombers/patrol aircraft. The RAF are able to obtain a batch of AWG-9 radars, from F-14 Tomcats, to be fitted to Nimrods, complete with the full weapons system; the resulting aircraft are able to carry multiple Phoenix missiles, with six carried internally (or up to twelve Sparrow internally), plus four Sparrow and four Sidewinders externally. The aircraft are modest in number, but because they have very impressive endurance, they prove ideal for dealing with Russian long range bombers and patrol planes in the GIUK area. Fighters are still used for the interception, but they are followed by one of these Nimrods, reducing the stress on the interceptor force. All of these modifications are completed by 1979, entering full service in 1981.

The timing proves fortuitous, with the Falklands war just around the corner; in the end, the Nimrods find themselves being used for long range escort duties, escorting Black Buck raids, Hercules flights, and even just being used for generally screwing with the Argentine air defences. Early in the conflict, a flight of two Nimrods find themselves being intercepted by no less than eight Mirages. They immediately drop down to wave-top height, taking advantage of their excellent low-level performance, and negating the Mirage's advantages of speed; the Nimrod's radar is still able to pick them out, and the Nimrods close to within 30km, before firing off a salvo of Phoenix and Sparrow missiles. This manages to bring down six of the eight Mirages, five of the kills being attributed to Phoenix, and one to Sparrow; the remaining two Mirages, instead of turning away, actually close in, but find themselves unable to get a missile lock, but the Nimrod's superior AIM-9L missiles get a lock, taking them down. This decisive engagement proves pretty humiliating for the Argentines, but proves the Nimrod's worth to the RAF; the RAF are able to persuade the US to allow them to buy a batch of AGM-78 Standard ARM missiles, allowing longer engagement range than the AGM-45s. With the launch of the Black Buck raids, the RAF sends in packages, each of two Vulcans and two Nimrods, with the Nimrods carrying both air-to-air and anti-radar missiles; best of all, the Nimrods are urgently fitted with a laser targetting pod, allowing the Vulcans to use laser-guided bombs, greatly reducing their range problems. The Vulcans fly with four LGBs each (2000lb bombs), and the Nimrods each carry four Standard ARMs, plus Sparrows and Sidewinders.

After the conflict, the RAF is so impressed with the Nimrod's performance that it decides the future Nimrod replacement needs to include such a version. Rather than opting for the P-7 project, the RAF instead settles on a modified version of the Airbus A-310, modified for low level operations. With Nimrod AEW having been cancelled, the RAF settles on using the E-2 Hawkeye's radar, mounted on a British aircraft, instead of the expensive E-3 AWACS. The A-310 ends up becoming the new platform of choice for:

- AWACS, mounting the Hawkeye's radar and systems, but with far more consoles
- Maritime patrol, with a weapons bay in the lower fuselage, but quite long, to match Nimrod's weapons capacity, including an air-to-air role!
- ELINT, replacing the Nimrod R.1s
- Tanker, replacing the VC-10s and remaining Victor tankers
- VIP transport, serving No32 Sqn, The Royal Flight, for royal and government use, plus use by RAF/RN/Army leadership

With the fall of the Soviet Union, the idea of the long range, slow, escort interceptor was thought to be over, but the ability is still built into the aircraft, and they even prove themselves over Kosovo and the Iraq no fly zones, having the necessary endurance to be on station for hours at a time.

[Tornado]

I've always felt the long-range 'missiler' concept should have been given more chance. I'm guessing what really killed off the idea was the state of progress in the 1950s when most of these ideas were considered. Radar and missile technology did not allow accurate enough tracking, lock-on and accuracy at long range to make the 'kill' a certainty. Given a supersonic target if you miss with the first shot by the second you've already got trouble on your hands and no smaller self-defence weapons to effectively use. By the time things improved in the 1970s there was no money for such projects, dog-fighting was back in fashion after Vietnam and rules of engagement (visual contact to stop friendly-fire etc) meant fitting TV trackers etc (as fitted to the F-14) and closing in to visual range thus removing any advantage you had.

Many Western observers predicted Tu-22M based interceptors etc attacking aerial reinforcements from the USA. Did the Soviets ever think about this idea or was it just Western paranoia over a perceived weakness?

[Aircav]

Great bit of writing Lawman, if I was wearing a hat I'd take it of to you 

[elmayerle]

I thought about F6D recently and started wondering about this:

There are other competitors for the program...... on what ground was F6D selected over other entries (a question, not a disagreement)?

Thanks in advance to whoever can provide an answer.

I seem to remember reading that a variant of the Intruder airframe was one such Gurmman proposal, along with a really subsonic loitering design derived from the S2F.

[dy031101]

I seem to remember reading that a variant of the Intruder airframe was one such Gurmman proposal, along with a really subsonic loitering design derived from the S2F.

I mean, how did F6D prevail over the Missileer version of the Intruder (or any other competitor for that matter)?

[elmayerle]

Probably lowest risk/lowest cost design presented.  Besides the missile and firecontrol, the only new items were the engines (this is where the TF30 originated) and the basic airframe would've been exceedingly simply to build.  Besides, I believe the F6D carried six missiles underwing while the Intruder derivative only carried four.