22 ideas (and missed opportunities)

[jcf]

The V.1000/VC.7 fuselage was circular with a diameter of 12'6".

Based on the 3-view the intent was to use two main gear struts each with a four-wheel truck, and a twin-wheel nosegear.
 

[mrdj]

I've been going through some sites, the wing seems to come from the Valiant B.3. The rounded wingtips, mid span tanks, but the u/c fairings gone.  The more I look, some things jump out with family resemblance, and some things get more obscure.

[Archibald]

So there's no way of obtaining a VC7 (a part from scratchbuild or heavy butchering ? )  

[Archibald]

Ok, here's an upgraded list

1-Vickers type C heavy bomber is developped. At the same period, the agrement with the USA over transports aircrafts is denounced.
2- The Malta class carriers are build from 1946, modernised in 1959 to serve up to 90's.
3- Miles M52 is not cancelled and reach mach 1 in early 1948.
4- 14 different aircraft makers are merged in 3 groups right from 1948.
5- The Hunter is the ONLY day fighter
6- The Vixen is the only FAW (both RN and RAF).
7- The Victor is the only V-bomber.
8- Avon, Conway, Medway/Spey are the way to go (they receive priority over the others, so only the most interesting such as the Pegasus are developped.)
9- After 1958 : The Bucc is the low level bomber (no TSR-2, AFVG, F-111K)
10- The Victor receive the Blue Steel (later mk2) becoming a standoff missile carrier to complete the bucc for nuclear deterrent.
11- OR-330 scrapped, OR-336 (= EE P.10) are for recon only (British Blackbird!).
12- ER-103C (AkA the fighter variant of the Fairey Delta II) replace the Hunter (no Lightning)
13- After Valiant cancellation (the plane was unuseful due to the Victor) Vickers VC-7 is funded by the RAF as transport (and later tanker). Civil variant is a success.
14- The Rotodyne is developed into a powerful tactical transport for the Army, RN... and BEA.
15- More Short Belfast are ordered.
16- HS-681 also become operational (along the Belfast and Rotodyne)
17- CVA-01 is studied in the late 70's to complete and later replace the Malta class carriers.
18- Blackburn P.141 complete the ER-103C as long range interceptor in the 70's. No need for the Tornado ADV... more money available after the IDS enter service.
19- Development of the Blue Dolphin SARH to arm them.
20- Black Prince is developed (in paralel with French Diamant) both beeing replaced by Ariane in the early 80's.
21- Hawker P.1216 replace the Harrier GR.3 and Sea Harrier FR.1 in 1986, completing the P.141.
22- The AEW radar system has a rotordome and is installed into a VC-7.

If you adopt the buccaneer in 1958, you get ride of the TSR-2, F-111 and AFVG.
If the Blackburn P.141 is adopted by the RAF in the early 70's, there's no Jaguar, Phantom nor Tornado ADV (as the Phantom and ADV, the P.141 was a two-seater armed with sparrows or Skyflash).
We have the Harrier for CAS, a mixed fleet of Tornado and Bucc for long range strike and the P.141 as long range interceptor.

The P.141 take the role of the Tornado ADV 10 years earlier (circa 1975 instead of 1985 or so). This mean that funds needed for the 165 Tornado ADV are available in the 80's...add to that no Harrier GR.5 (AST-409)... no Sea Harrier F/A2 (the FA.1 was just an interim type waiting for...
The Hawker P.1216
(funded between 1981 and 1989, when the Typhoon program is launched.)

[RLBH]

The V1000/VC7 wing, although it looks similar, is rather different from and at least 10% larger than a Valiant wing.  I've scaled the drawings up to 72nd and tried it out - no go.

As for BOAC not wanting the type, well that bollocks.  Reread Project Cancelled.  BOAC didn't want to have to underwrite another project as they had with the Comet but had the VC7 gone ahead, I'm sure they would have taken it.

According to "Stuck on the Drawing Board", the VC7 began life as a Hastings replacement for the RAF in 1951; by 1954, it had become a joint military/civil program aimed also at replacing the Comet 3; BEA and Trans-Canada Airlines were also interested. When the prototype was under construction, it was discovered that the aircraft would be 18,000 pounds heavier than projected. BOAC did not believe that the Conways could provide enough thrust, even uprated, for the London-New York route, whilst TARC (whomever they might be) decided that the British industry would be better served by uprated Britannias and Comets until the supersonic transport arrived.

In 1964.

The project was finally killed when the RAF was forced to cut back on expenditure, and with the V1000 being one of the most expensive programs, it had to go, despite the prototype aircraft nearly being complete. Trans-Canada made efforts to convince the UK Government to continue the program, but to no avail.

Ironically, the Boeing 707 aircraft ordered for BOAC had the same Conways that the VC7 would have had, despite weighing more.

[Archibald]

Thank you! I also posted a thread on the subject at Secret Projects.
Was the plane really overweighted ? The Conway had a huge growth potential, as the Olympus... (both ended at 9 tons thrust without reheat)  

[Zen]

Weight growth is a red herring, all airliners grow in weight before first flight.

Hmmmm....
1. Vickers C type bomber was not the type opted for, the most likely was the Bristol design which became the civilian Brabazon. A jet Brabazon however might be interesting. Whittal had a Turbofan design for the long range bomber, would really change everything I suspect.
2. I've dealt with Malta before, best chance is that they go ahead after a total redesign, say build start in late 46 early 47, then -01 ISD is around 1953. Taken back for modernisation in 1957, by which time lessons learned from Victorious is enough. -02 would be 1954 or 55 and frankly I suspect they'd delay the process to include modern features like an angled deck etc... so expent ISD to be around 1958.

3. fine, could utterly change how fighters progress in the UK. Minimum change is Hunter is a supersonic aircraft.
4. fine.
5. See above
6. fine but the changes wrought by the M.52 could lead to something quite different.
7. Victor only makes sense if the Long range bomber of 1 is there and continues into the 60's, presumably in second line duties.
8. Not sure about this one. Avon to RB106 perhaps, Conway predates Medway, better to the latter as a successor to the former.
9. Buccs is fine, RAF version have TFR and a supersonic successor or development is needed.
10. OK. Needs IMO the small stand off missiles too, for both Victor and Buccaneer, but thats after the mk1 Blue Steal
11. Possible as a bomber and stand off missileer too. But its still a large compex and expensive system to field.
12. Delta II variant is fine I suppose.
13. Tanker and AEW versions needed IMO but it depends on the later Belfast.
14. Really not sure about this, the noise was said to be terrible, and the ride was not that great.
15. Indeed, Civil versions and variants.
16. Same caveat as before.
17. CVA-01.....assuming there is no economic problems as in our world? Then it depends on the level of support for the RN. CVA-01 as was, was a nightmare the designers where glad to drop.
18. No this has to be a competition, between either a fixed wing of VG machine, from the two surviving firms.
19. Still prefer Red Hebe.
20. Possible I suppose, but Ariane as we know it would be very different I suspect.
21. PCB is not OK. Better to stick to subsonic for a STOVL CAS/BAI machine, a successor engine to Pegasus is OK, but leave the PCB out. No need for Shar, the RN has its conventional aircraft, the only Harriers to operate from a carrier under these circumstances would be the RAF from the Commando carriers.
22. Fine, but we need a Gannet successor too.

[RLBH]

Thank you! I also posted a thread on the subject at Secret Projects.
Was the plane really overweighted ? The Conway had a huge growth potential, as the Olympus... (both ended at 9 tons thrust without reheat)

Overweight? No, not at all, it was going to come in at 248,000 pounds - as compared to 257,000 pounds for the 707-120B. No, I think BOAC were just being obtuse, for a change.    

[Archibald]

Concerning the heavy bomber, a guy from secret project send me some infos on the competition. You're right, the vickers type C (and particularly the daring canard we all know) was not the winner, it was the Bristol.
so here we go a heavy piston-engine bomber, later replace by the Victor (roughly like the B-36 which was replaced by the B-52, but in the 100 tons class instead of 200 or so)
That would points 1 and 7

Honestly I would keep the "good" point of real world (Tornado, Harrier, Hawk) I'm more interested in the "missed opportunities" here. So the supersonic TFR would be the Tornado, maybe a bit different...

concerning the CVA-01... less hurry and emergency (hey, there is already the modernised Maltas so they have plenty of time) would give a better final design.
So the CVA-01 can wait some years, leaving the Sea Tornado, P.141 or other aircraft you like  replace the Sea Vixens (we already discussed the RN Sea Vixen replacement  some weeks ago )

But a competition between the F-4K, Vickers 583 and Blackburn P.141 would be great!!!    

Concerning the AEW, the Belfast is non starter considering its propellers. I red that the Nimrod AEW-3 radar disliked propellers (aparently the Tu-126 Moss had the same problems).
I think a VC-7 standardised fleet of support aircrafts is better (god I have to launch a VC-7 thread in alternative history )  

and you're right for the Gannet AEW replacement... considering the size of the CVA-01 and Malta, I think the Hawkeye would be a good choice.
Other solutions would be
- a modernised E-1B Tracer (with turboprops to boost performances) in cooperation with France (no Hawkeyes in the foch and clemenceau)
- I heard that Lockheed proposed AEW Vikings with a triangular radome.

[Hobbes]

Concerning the AEW, the Belfast is non starter considering its propellers. I red that the Nimrod AEW-3 radar disliked propellers (aparently the Tu-126 Moss had the same problems).

IIRC that's only for some types of radar, including the FMICW radar originally planned for the Nimrod. Ironically, the pulse doppler radar they ended up using would have had no problems with propellers.

more info

The extra space the Belfast offers over the Nimrod would have been helpful. I'm not sure how the Belfast's range/endurance compares to the Nimrod, though.  

[Archibald]

Ok, I stand corrected . but I'm still a fan of the VC-7 for the task...  

[mrdj]

Playing with the image on the thread.

[Archibald]

Nice! Could you try an AEW variant ?  ^_^  

[Archibald]

Ok, after reading a bit "projects cancelled" I understand that I have to modify this

5- The Hunter is the ONLY day fighter

Better to use the Hawker P.1052 / 1081 family as interim day fighters for both the RN and RAF (for the RN, this mean that half of Sea Hawks orders are changed for P.1052 / 1081, for the RAF it give an interim swept-wing fighter waiting for the Hunter...no F-86 orders).

Well maybe better to make two distinct points

5- Hawker P.1052 (or 1081) are adopted as interim swept wing fighters to replace Meteors, Vampire, Sea Hawks and Attackers (pending te arrival of the Hunter).

6- The Hunter replace them  in RAF service

In RN service, the day fighter P.1081 is replaced by the all weather Sea Vixen right from 1954. It is relegated to tactical bombing (at Suez for example) before beeing replaced by the all-weather Buccaneer in the late 50's (as the Scimitar was).
No Wyverns, Sea Hawks withdrawn circa 1953, no Venom, no Scimitar. All this aircrafts are replaced by the P.1052/ P.1081 entering service circa 1951.
The plane is used in the fighter-bomber and day fleet defender.
It is completed by the Sea Vixen from 1953 in the (now all weather) fleet-defender role, switch to ground attack before beeing replaced by the Bucc.
Main problem is the transition from the Sea Hornet to the Sea Vixen... but this occur during the Korean War and governement gave the DH-110 "super priority".
It there's a gap, navalised Meteor NF-14 or Vampire NF-10 would be sufficient and cheap!  

[Zen]

That starts to fit properly, yes.

Super SeaHawk lets call it. IMO this can develope with reheat into something both close to and yet different from the Hunter as we know it. Building on the knowledge gained from the Miles M.52.

Other 'knock on effects'.....with bigger carriers its possible DH might be contracted to build the larger SeaVixen with the 40 inch AI.18 set, possibly around 1954, the right time to take onboard some of the proposed developments of the DH.110 for higher performance. A kind of super sea vixen.
That said by 1954 with knowledge perculating over the use of reheat on airframes.......maybe the RN would already start looking for a Sea Vixen successor to more fully exploit those developments. Call this what....requirement N/F.54 for supersonic speed, minimum 30 inch AI.18 and the emerging Red Dean AAM. Would be an interesting competition.

OT thought here.....Swift was not that good a fighter, but very good as a ground  attack and recce machine. One has to wonder if the RN might have been better served to have had this for those roles than the Scimitar. Good airframe, a nose that accepts a radar, and reheat.