M3 Grant and M4 Sherman Family of Vehicles

[rickshaw]

Stoolslinger's Texan tank project makes me wonder about the possibility of something more "modest"- can the Lee or at least Grant turret take a 6-pounder?

(That as an alternative to upgunning the sponson while keeping the 37mm with canister rounds......)

Of course it could.  The 75mm had a much heavier recoil than the 6 Pdr and considering that the British version of the 75mm was in fact a rebored 6 Pdr, I really can't see why it shouldn't be able to.

As for the 37mm's ability to fire Canister - useful in the Jungle but with the turret so high, you'd have to wonder about its utility.  I'd rather put s-mine projectors around the hull.   

[rickshaw]

Of course it could.  The 75mm had a much heavier recoil than the 6 Pdr and considering that the British version of the 75mm was in fact a rebored 6 Pdr, I really can't see why it shouldn't be able to.

I mean in the turret......

Ah, a bit more problematic putting it there.  I suspect you'd run into problems with the recoilling breech in that small turret (literally! ).  It would be a bit crowded in there.  More than likely the turret ring would need to be beefed up somewhat, as would the turret.

If you're interested in alternative armament proposals for the Grant/Lee, I've been toying some time with putting duel 6 Pdrs with autoloaders in the hull along the centreline, at the roof line and reducing the turret on top to something smaller with twin MGs and a stereoscopic rangefinder and moved to over where the sponson is now.    I rather think that would make a DAK tank commander need to change his trousers.   

[dy031101]

Ah, a bit more problematic putting it there.  I suspect you'd run into problems with the recoilling breech in that small turret (literally! ).  It would be a bit crowded in there.  More than likely the turret ring would need to be beefed up somewhat, as would the turret.

I see......  

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Some mental notes:



Turret is from M8A1...... with armour covers as well as a 57mm gun...... could "not having a 75mm" free up some space for a co-axial MG in the turret?

[rickshaw]

Not quite sure what you mean when you say:

Turret is from M8A1...... with armour covers as well as a 57mm gun...... could "not having a 75mm" free up some space for a co-axial MG in the turret?

There was always room for a Co-Ax MG in the turret of the M3 Grant/Lee.   

I'd be interested in seeing a top view of your proposal.

I also wonder about the amount of armour you've got on that turret.  The M8 turret had even less than an M3/M5 light tank IIRC.

Its an awfully big target up that high and if its only lightly armoured...

[tomo pauk]

Grant with 3in 'stead of 75mm, 37 mm replaced with .50in. Surprise for Germans in 1942?

[dy031101]

There was always room for a Co-Ax MG in the turret of the M3 Grant/Lee.

I thought the M8 turret doesn't have one though because the 75mm howitzer (or the 75mm tank gun in its tank destroyer experiment) doesn't leave enough room.

[rickshaw]

Grant with 3in 'stead of 75mm, 37 mm replaced with .50in. Surprise for Germans in 1942?

The 75mm was a better gun for infantry support and that was the primary purpose of US tanks.  US Armoured Doctrine had it that the job of tank hunting was that of the Tank Destroyers.  Tanks were to support infantry.

[rickshaw]

There was always room for a Co-Ax MG in the turret of the M3 Grant/Lee.

I thought the M8 turret doesn't have one though because the 75mm howitzer (or the 75mm tank gun in its tank destroyer experiment) doesn't leave enough room.

No, there was room but the role it was intended to fulfill didn't need one.  Also IIRC the gunner sat on the wrong side to use it, which might be a more convincing explanation.

[dy031101]

I also wonder about the amount of armour you've got on that turret.  The M8 turret had even less than an M3/M5 light tank IIRC.

Some applique armours would be in order.

[sotoolslinger]

Yeah I see upgunning the turret as problematic. My build is actually somewhat of a scaleorama. The Lee is 1/32 scale and the M41 turret is 1/35 and I still had to cut a lot bigger hole to fit the turret ring. The M41 turret ring still actually is offset out the port side of the chassis .I also will still have to move the sponson gunners door to the right to clear the turret.

[Maverick]

I guess it depends on it's envisaged role.  If it's a tank destroyer, it's in all kinds of trouble as Brian alluded to with its height.  Classic tank destroyers like the German Jagdpanzers were low-slung vehicles dispensing with a turret completely allowing larger weapons to be mounted and reducing the overall height (and visibility) of the vehicle.  The M3 family (and the M4 too) were much to high.  A comparable vehicle (the Panzer IV) was 2.68m in height compared to the M4 (2.74m) and M3 (3.12m) and comfortably carried a 75mm long barrelled tank gun.  Whilst the M3 family were better than those avaiable to the British Army prior to their introduction, the type was crucially flawed.  The Soviets christened it the "Coffin of Seven Brothers".

Regards,

Mav

[sotoolslinger]

Yep my build is supposed to be just a Texan repop of the M3. It basically has the same flaws as the original. Although I have upgunned ,up engined ,and up armored mine it still has the crappy design flaws of the Lee/Grant. Sponson gun, which is basically a big hole in your armor, and way too tall. Here is the work it took to get the larger turret in.




As you can see I had too extend the left side out. I had intended to make the engine deck different anyway but I also had to raise it to cover how much or the turret ring stuck out at the rear.
Also remember I scaleorama'd the turret down to a 2 1/2 inch gun (63 some odd mm) so it basically is a 6 pounder.

[Maverick]

Lovely work Sotool.  In many ways, I think it will 'even out' the look of the thing being wider.

Regards,

Mav

[rickshaw]

I also wonder about the amount of armour you've got on that turret.  The M8 turret had even less than an M3/M5 light tank IIRC.

Some applique armours would be in order.

Which would compound the problem of a big turret, way up high.

Interestingly there was one M3 Grant which was modified to something like what you're looking for.  "Claridges" (named after the famous Gentlemens' Club).  It was modified to be a command tank.  It had a new, fake glacis plate made from sheet metal and a fake gun added to the turret to make it look like an M4 Sherman. This is the only picture I've managed to find of it:



I have though found some pictures though of a model of it:

[sotoolslinger]

Lovely work Sotool.  In many ways, I think it will 'even out' the look of the thing being wider.

Regards,

Mav

Thanks bubba My next one will be an attempt to "improve" the Sherman