M3 Grant and M4 Sherman Family of Vehicles

[General Zod]

US WWII tank destroyers are said to be open-top both for improved view for the vehicle commander and as a weight-saving measure.

How much of a weight would a turret roof add to the vehicle?

Not sure how much extra weight But,the closed turret would be better for combat Harder for shrapnel to enter,or snipers to pick off the crew Some M10 crews in Europe did add roof armor

[dy031101]

Both the M4 (Sherman) hull and the M10 (Wolverine) hull were used to produce the M36 (Jackson) series.  Has any comparison been done between these variations?

[dy031101]

salt6 mentioned a M4 Sherman hull with the turret of M26 tank.

Did the "Easy 8" come in the Jumbo variety as well?  Turret of M26 + Jumbo Easy 8 Hull = ...... 

Even if regular Sherman hulls were used, would the enclosed turret protection have been worthy of whatever risk and/or delay associated with it?  It would appear that US tank destroyers were just as often employed in infantry support role like a regular tank to begin with......

[General Zod]

salt6 mentioned a M4 Sherman hull with the turret of M26 tank.

Did the "Easy 8" come in the Jumbo variety as well?  Turret of M26 + Jumbo Easy 8 Hull = ...... 

Even if regular Sherman hulls were used, would the enclosed turret protection have been worthy of whatever risk associated with it?  It would appear that tank destroyers were just as often employed in infantry support role like a regular tank to begin with......

Unless I am wrong,no E2 Jumbo had the E8 suspension units Some M4A3E8's did have extra armor on the hulls and turret There was one prototype M4A3 that had the M26 turret It was on the narrow V.V.S.S. suspension

I do like the idea of a Jumbo with M26 turret and E8 suspension

[dy031101]

I do like the idea of a Jumbo with M26 turret and E8 suspension

Although the "Easy 8" is said to have improved armours as well, the "Jumbo" is more clearly explained- with frontal armour beating that of Tiger I!

How much of a mobility penalty would this arrangement have suffered though?  The Sherman is reputed to be able to go where Panzer IVs and (particularly) Tiger Is can't after all......

[General Zod]

I do like the idea of a Jumbo with M26 turret and E8 suspension

Although the "Easy 8" is said to have improved armours as well, the "Jumbo" is more clearly explained- with frontal armour beating that of Tiger I!

How much of a mobility penalty would this arrangement have suffered though?  The Sherman is reputed to be able to go where Panzer IVs and (particularly) Tiger Is can't after all......

The A3 Sherman,which the jumbo was based on,had a 500HP Ford engine So adding too much weight would be a problem I think the M26 Pershing used that same engine That's why it had some mechanical problems Using a 500HP engine is a 30 something ton tank is great A 42 ton or so tank,not so great

[dy031101]

The A3 Sherman,which the jumbo was based on,had a 500HP Ford engine So adding too much weight would be a problem I think the M26 Pershing used that same engine That's why it had some mechanical problems Using a 500HP engine is a 30 something ton tank is great A 42 ton or so tank,not so great

How heavy would you expect a Jumbo with M26 turret and E8 suspension to be?

[General Zod]

The A3 Sherman,which the jumbo was based on,had a 500HP Ford engine So adding too much weight would be a problem I think the M26 Pershing used that same engine That's why it had some mechanical problems Using a 500HP engine is a 30 something ton tank is great A 42 ton or so tank,not so great

How heavy would you expect a Jumbo with M26 turret and E8 suspension to be?

At a quick guess,40 tons That's why bigger engines are made right?

[dy031101]

Rallymodeler's Christie Tank for the US Army idea suddenly got me looking over the net and finding this:



Nice.  Was the raised roof made to provide clearance for inside of the turret, or would a roof flush with the top of turret sides plus a commander's cupola have worked just as well?

[Weaver]

The idea with the open roof was that these were SP anti-tank guns, not tanks, and so they should have the same situational awareness as a gun crew in the open, rather than the limited one of a buttoned-up tank crew. Of course, this didn't seem such a good idea when rain, snow and shrapnel was flying about, so various add-on roof systems were tried. Some of them sat above the trruet line and had fold up/down side panels so that they provided permanent overhead cover, and option side cover or panoramic vision.

[dy031101]

Some of them sat above the trruet line and had fold up/down side panels so that they provided permanent overhead cover, and option side cover or panoramic vision.

So it has nothing to do with the internal space of the turrets and is simply such that the crew can observe under armour?

[Weaver]

Some of them sat above the trruet line and had fold up/down side panels so that they provided permanent overhead cover, and option side cover or panoramic vision.

So it has nothing to do with the internal space of the turrets and is simply such that the crew can observe under armour?

As far as I know, yes. The turrets don't seem particularly small or low, certainly not compared to some other tanks of that era. I'd imagine that if you wanted to make these vehicles into "proper" tanks, you could put a flat roof on the turret rim with cupolas and hatches etc.... This is a project I've contemplated a number of times...

[dy031101]

I'd imagine that if you wanted to make these vehicles into "proper" tanks, you could put a flat roof on the turret rim with cupolas and hatches etc.... This is a project I've contemplated a number of times...

Exactly what I'm inquiring about.  Thanks. 

[philp]

Be sure to give the commander a coupola and add some additional armor to the turret.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Here is a link to the restoration work being done on an M4A3E2 Jumbo Sherman named 'Cobra King' at the George S. Patton Museum, Fort Knox, Kentucky. 


Cobra King was the lead vehicle in the relief column to the surrounded soldiers in Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge so it has some historical importance.