Luftwaffe Air To Ground Weapons

[Mossie]

I'm thinking about adding some air to ground armament to my Secret Santa build, & a quick web search doesn't reveal much.  Can anyone give me any info on the various weapons, operational or otherwise?

I'm mainly thinking along the rocket projectile route (although if theres anything else I might be swayed, but don't worry too much about guns), I've found some info on the Panzerblitz & Panzerschrek I & II weapons, but details like dimensions would be great, also if they are available as aftermarket sets or as a kit part etc.

Cheers!

Simon.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

You can try researching ORDATA - Online International Deminer's Guide to UXO for Identification, Recovery, and Disposal to see what comes up, just be aware that this information is not always 100% accurate as it is based on input from sources that may have had incorrect or corrupted data.  There are still some really interesting images that you can at least download as well as some basic history, description, and dimensional information.   

[GTX]

Simon,

What size weapons are you interested in - small or large?  What's the aircraft?  Try here for some basic info.  If you want more, please let me know as I have quite a bit offline on this topic.

Regards,

Greg

[Mossie]

Thanks guys!

Greg, the aircraft will be completley ficticious (so accuracy isn't important but I'd like it appear authentic) but is based largely on the Revell 1/48 Focke Wulf Ta-154, so your looking at a small to medium size machine.  It'll be a jet fighter-bomber, probably twin boom, but I'm not sure yet about that.  The main thing I had in mind was something around the lines of the British 25lb/60lb Rocket Projectile or the American M-8 or HVAR.

I've found a little bit more trawling the net & some old magazines, apparently there was an air to ground version of the R4M unguided air to air rocket.  There was also a 19 rocket podded variant that looked very much like more modern versions.  Might do the job, but I was looking for something a little larger.

I found this site (the English isn't perfect as it's translated from German via Google), there's a few interesting ideas there, especially the "tank lightning I", which I guess is the Panzerblitz.  Apparently this was simply an air launched version of the infantary 8.8cm weapon.  This is the kind of thing I'm looking for.  The 'computer centre 65' looks interesting too.

German air to ground weapons (Clicky)

I found that Pavla do a Panzerblitz I & II set, unfortunately it's only available in 1/72.  I've also found a link that seems to suggest 'Korat' (Kora?) models do a 1/48 version, I'll maybe have a look at these.

Simon.

EDIT, I've looked at the Korat sets, but the only supplier I can find wants to charge me nearly double the cost of the set for postage, then I'll get stumped for the exchange rate too, so I don't think I'll bother with those!

[B777LR]

What weapons the luftwaffe used? Easy: bombs, rockets, guns, cannons!  

[Mossie]

Smart arse!    

[GTX]

I've found a little bit more trawling the net & some old magazines, apparently there was an air to ground version of the R4M unguided air to air rocket. There was also a 19 rocket podded variant that looked very much like more modern versions. Might do the job, but I was looking for something a little larger.

Simon,

Yes there were a number of air-to-ground variants.

R4/M HL Panzerblitz 2 :

This creation was the result of mating the very successful Panzerschreck warhead to the motor of the already proven R4/M rocket.  The result was a dramatic improvement in range and accuracy, but most importantly, no longer required the aircraft to slow down.  The rocket launcher was a flat wooden sheet, which reduced drag, and mounted six or seven rockets each.  Penetration was still 160mm - 220mm, depending on impact angle.  This rocket system was used by Luftwaffe attack aircraft from December 1944 onwards.

Panzerblitz 3 :

The Panzerblitz III was the next step in the Panzerblitz series.  The launcher remained the same, but the rocket was designed to accommodate a number of different warheads, including the 75mm HI.Gr.43 HEAT and 210mm Wurfgranate.  A new R4/M motor was used to increase velocity, but carried less propellant and range was slightly decreased.  These rockets were never used in combat operations.

Here are a few pics of the R4M including launch fits etc. (the variant you would be interested in has the larger armour-penetrating shaped charge warhead):




Please note that it was also carried by the Fw-190:

The 'computer centre 65' looks interesting too.

Not sure about that translation (my understanding is that they went by the designation "Rauchzylinder" (smoke cylinder), or RZ for short), but yes the RZ65 'Fohn' (and similar, though slightly larger RZ73) was another weapon that I'd thought about.  It was basically a tube launched solid propellant rocket and came in numerous fits (some with rotating magazines).  

The RZ-65 rocket was carried under German aircraft from the autumn of 1942 onwards.  The rockets were loaded in short tubes that could be carried in any variety of configurations, from a single row of four to a double row of twelve.  The RZ-65 suffered from poor accuracy and didn't pack enough punch - barely more than the standard 20mm used at the time.  The RZ-65 was modified to carry armor piercing ammunition and was used by the Fw.190A-3/U2 against light Russian armor, which it proved successful.  It was never used in large numbers, but was useful as a prototype for future developments.

The RZ-73 was an upgraded RZ-65 with better speed, range, and equipped with either high explosive or the Pz.Gr.41 hardened core warhead.  Accuracy improved, and this rocket proved useful against both soft targets and medium tanks, although it was never widely used in the anti-tank role due to Germany's loss of tungsten supplies in 1943.  The high explosive version served until the end of the war, but was generally replaced by the R4/M when they were available.

Here are some pics (including trials with variants with rotating magazines):







Incidently, the weapon shown on the cover of "Luftwaffe Secret Projects Vol 3" was the Fohn 65:



There is also a 1/72 model of the Bf 109 with the weapon:



Lastly, there was the Kramer X-7 Rotkäppchen ("little red riding hood").  This was essentially the anti-tank equivalent of the X-4 Air-to-air missile (though there was actually an anti-tank version of the X-4).  Look here for more information it it.

I hope this is useful.  Please note that I can give you dimensions of these weapons in case you want to scratch build them.

Regards,

Greg

[Mossie]

Jeff, finally got ORDATA to work, it keeps going screwy on me though!  Some nice pics once I worked out how to get the best results.

Greg, wow, that's great!  Lots of fat to chew on there!  I'm most interested in the RZ73 or possibly the Panzerschreck.  If you can post dimensions for these that'd be great!

The launcher I mentioned for the R4M was the RA55, a small podded cylinder holding 19 rockets.  It had a rounded front end with a conical tail.  It was developedfor the Me262 but not used operationally.  I probably won't use this though as it's pretty small.

I found a link to Arthur Bentleys site which show some scale drawings of the R4M & other air to air missiles, not quite what I'm after but I thought you might like to see them:

http://www.albentley-drawings.com/missiles.htm

[GTX]

Simon,

Here you go:

Panzerschreck I :



The Panzerschreck I was an anti-tank rocket system that combined three panzerschreck launchers onto a special housing which could be mounted on an ETC 50 or ETC 70 bomb rack.  It fired the same RPzB.Gr.4992 rocket used by the army, which could penetrate up to 160mm - 220mm of armor depending on impact angle.  The attacking aircraft needed to slow down to 490 kph in order to fire the rocket, and the range was very limited.  Because of these two factors, the Luftwaffe soon found itself looking for a replacement.

Diameter:  88mm
Length:  705mm

Panzerschreck 2 :

The Panzerschreck II, sometimes also referred to as the Panzerblitz I, improved the velocity of the old Panzerschreck I by using an improved rocket motor. Unfortunately, aircraft still had to reduce speed and get very close to their intended targets in order to guarantee a kill.  Despite this, the Panzerchreck II were delivered to combat units on the Eastern Front in October 1944.  The Panzerschreck II rockets could be fired in pairs or all at once.  It was typical of an aircraft to carry sets of 6 or 8 launch tubes on each mounting.

Diameter:  88mm
Length:  705mm

Rheinmetall-Borsig RZ 65




Diameter:  73mm
Length:  262mm

Rheinmetall-Borsig RZ 73

Diameter:  73mm
Length:  330mm

I also thought that this drawing of the revolver magazine version shown in my previous post might be of interest.



Note that both the RZ 65 and RZ 73 would be hidden from view in either their launch tube or magazine.

Regards,

Greg

[Mossie]

Greg that's great again, cheers!

I'll probably go with the Panzerschreck because it's length gives it that little bit more 'presence'.  I'm planning on a Indiana Jones/Luft 46 themed build based (well, 'inspired by' is probably closer) on the jet concept drawing that was never used in the films.  My intention is for it to be a fighter bomber & I'm trying to work out a scene for it, & at the moment rocket projectiles would fit with what I've got in mind.  As with all the Indy films, the precise dating of it will be ambigous (i.e., the flying wing in Raiders suggests it's later war, it's markings suggest pre-war) so it dosen't matter if I mix & match older technology with newer stuff.

[GTX]

Simon,

If you are after 'presence' you could go for the Wurfgranate 21 rocket:





or even the Wurfgranate 28/32 rockets:




BTW, try here for many of these (including the Panzerschreck/Panzerblitz -and in 1/48 too).

Regards,

Greg

[GTX]

Hmmm,  Now you've got me thinking - how about a Blohm & Voss P. 204 (see pics below) loaded to the hilt for an Eastern Front CAS mission similar to some Vietnam era Spads:




Might have to do something about that landing gear though.

Regards,

Greg

[Jschmus]

The Revell 1/72 Me 262 a1 kit contains a pair of stubby rocket tubes which are meant to be mounted under the nose.  The text in the instructions mentions some sort of R4M rockets, but when I searched for that text, all I could find were references to the rockets pictured above.  What then, are the rockets in the kit?

[Archibald]

Panzer schreck

I imagine  a german tank painted green, with stubby ears and smelly gases coming from the exhaust...    

[Mossie]

The Revell 1/72 Me 262 a1 kit contains a pair of stubby rocket tubes which are meant to be mounted under the nose.  The text in the instructions mentions some sort of R4M rockets, but when I searched for that text, all I could find were references to the rockets pictured above.  What then, are the rockets in the kit?

From your description Jschmus, it sounds like the the RA55 launcher.  This contained 19 R4M rockets in a small pod with a rounded nose & conical tail, much more like a modern RP container than the racks shown in Gregs pics.  I've got a couple of magazines with drawings of it, one shows it attached to the nose of a Me262 so I guess this is the one in your kit.  It was under development, but the end of the war came before it could be used operationally.  Perfect for a whiff!

Might have to do something about that landing gear though.

Greg, how about something on the lines of the Saab B-17 (Sweedish one, not Boeings bomber!)?  It had fairings attached to the undercarriage.  You could do it the same style, or have the fairings permanently attached to the wings with opening doors.



PS, thanks again for even more pics & info!  I may still go with the Panzerschreck, but that W.Gr.21 looks very enticing.  I know it was an air to air rocket, but was it used in an air to ground role?