Super Creepy!

[BillSlim]

Hiding under a desk wouldn't save you if you were close to the initiation, but it would prevent injury from flying glass if you were further away.
I know it's fashionable now to laugh at the advice in 'Duck and Cover' but in an era when a Soviet attack on America would only be a relatively small number of atomic bombs it was quite sensible.
Similarly the advice in 'Advising the Householder' and 'Protect and Survive' are fairly useless if you are in an urban area likely to be a target, but on the fringes of a target area, or in a rural area they probably would save your life.
One thing to remember about the early UK Civil Defence films is that in the late '40s and early '50s any Soviet attack was expect to consist of a few atom bombs dropped on our biggest cities combined with conventional bombing. It was why the Civil Defence Corps were still being trained to deal with HE and incendiary. What we know now is that the Soviets did only have a few atomic bombs back then so the planning was not far off.

It's only when we get into the era of thermonuclear bombs that civil defence becomes increasingly futile and the government recognised that. Just look at the findings of the Strath Report from the '60s; it was not long after it came out that the CDC was 'stood-down'.

Was Man City one of the nuke free zones? IIRC they always took the worst case scenario as the norm, while the Home Office always took the best case. Both were probably wrong.

[bobbo]

I remember having nightmares after a telecast (here in the U. S.) of "Alas, Babylon" back in the early '60's, and later reading several Nuclear War Apocalyptic novels about the same time - 1961 & 1962 - (including Philip Wylie's Triumph) . . . We had a Air Raid siren added to the TV antenna just behind our house and the tests scared the living daylights out of me.  

I was 13 at the time.  

I still am fascinated and repelled by Nuclear War stories . . .

bobbo

[BillSlim]

'Alas Babylon' is a great novel. AFAIK it is pretty realistic for its period.

[Weaver]

Was Man City one of the nuke free zones? IIRC they always took the worst case scenario as the norm, while the Home Office always took the best case. Both were probably wrong.

Yep - there used to be signs along all the major roads leading into town proudly proclaiming that Manchester was a Nuclear Free City. We used to joke that they wouldn't work because they wern't written in Russian......

[BillSlim]

Dundee was as well. Presumably the Kremlin made sure that they were removed from the target plot.  
Neither city was right of course in declaring itself 'nuke free' anyway. I'm presuming that Manchester's hospitals did nuclear medicine, x-rays, chemo etc, just as Ninewells in Dundee does.

Amongst the most amusing areas that were nuclear free in Scotland were Fife, which was home to RND Rosyth, where nuclear submarines were refitted, and Strathclyde, which had within its boundaries HMNB Clyde and RNAD Coulport.

Btw, would this be an appropriate time to plug my own WW3 AH? Last time I mentioned it here it didn't seem to attract too much attention, although BBC and Mav have done some great profiles for it.

[NARSES2]

Hiding under a desk wouldn't save you if you were close to the initiation, but it would prevent injury from flying glass if you were further away.
I know it's fashionable now to laugh at the advice in 'Duck and Cover' but in an era when a Soviet attack on America would only be a relatively small number of atomic bombs it was quite sensible.
Similarly the advice in 'Advising the Householder' and 'Protect and Survive' are fairly useless if you are in an urban area likely to be a target, but on the fringes of a target area, or in a rural area they probably would save your life.
One thing to remember about the early UK Civil Defence films is that in the late '40s and early '50s any Soviet attack was expect to consist of a few atom bombs dropped on our biggest cities combined with conventional bombing. It was why the Civil Defence Corps were still being trained to deal with HE and incendiary. What we know now is that the Soviets did only have a few atomic bombs back then so the planning was not far off.

It's only when we get into the era of thermonuclear bombs that civil defence becomes increasingly futile and the government recognised that. Just look at the findings of the Strath Report from the '60s; it was not long after it came out that the CDC was 'stood-down'.

Hadn't really thought about it from that point of view Bill and you are right.Living in London we were a prime target for the bombs they did have and I tend to focus on that. We lived (still live) about 11 miles from the center and my dad always said if war broke out he was going to stand in the middle of Trafalgar Square to get it over with quickly...when I got a little older and heard about the 4 min warning etc, I pointed out it took the No 3 bus an hour to get to Trafalgar Square...got a clip round the ear for my trouble 

I remember having nightmares after a telecast (here in the U. S.) of "Alas, Babylon" back in the early '60's, and later reading several Nuclear War Apocalyptic novels about the same time - 1961 & 1962 - (including Philip Wylie's Triumph0) . . . We had a Air Raid siren added to the TV antenna just behind our house and the tests scared the living daylights out of me. 


bobbo

The one that gave me nightmares was the launch of Sputnik. I was 5 at the time and woke up screaming after dreaming about hundreds of them landing and disgorging Russian troops armed with SMG's 

As for air raid sirens there is still one on a pole down the road. They used to be tested regularly when I was a kid. All the Ruskie's had to do was time the raid to the regular, published test time 

[BillSlim]

Ever read the GLC's study into a nuclear attack on London? Depending on the various attack scenarios they chose and which borough you lived in the result varied from almost no effect to being air pollution.
At 11 miles from a potential GZ the likelihood is that you'd have survived, even without P&S measures.

I remember there being one air raid siren here, on the roof of the Town House. No idea if it still worked because it was never tested in the '80s. Reliability, or otherwise, or the siren system was a major concern throughout the Cold War.

You're showing your age with Sputnik. 

[NARSES2]

I've seen some of the GLC stuff Bill, but we have/had a "secret" bunker about 100 yards away underneath one of the blocks of flats that was going to be a "secret underground command bunker" in times of war. It was so secret that everyone new it was there  After a while I even delivered papers to the security/caretaker (read Dad's army) who looked after it  So I think we have had one on top of us.

Was reminded of it many years latter by an exceptionally bad sit com try out starring George Cole that was set in a UK that had been taken over by the Soviets. When the war had started Maggie and her mates had withdrawn to their bunkers and the Soviet parachutists had landed and sealed them in...war over  The only funny part of the whole 30mins 

[simmie]

I remember seeing the nuclear free zone signs in Dundee, always found that to be most amusing!!!!

Other than it being a metropolitan area, I can't remember anything in Dundee that was worth calling a target, (mind you some parts of the city looked like they had been hit already!!)

Anyway, I was a member of the Royal Observer Corps from my 16th birthday till we were stood down.

We had a network of 870 underground posts all around the country that were to provide warnings to the public, report burst and monitor the post attack radiation for the movement of survivors.

It was generally unspoken, but if you were the duty crew on the post when the balloon went up, you locked the lid for the next 3 weeks!!!

The chances of survival were never talked about openly, but it mainly depended on where you post was situated.  We were at the top of a cliff by the village of St Cyrus.  Our nearest 'target' was the US Navy listening post at RAF Edzell, but it was behind a line of hills, so we wern't too badly placed.  Our Group control was at Camperdown in Dundee, which may have been more of a problem.

[raafif]

quote --
"the thing that creeped him out was how quickly the non-professional extras playing the refugees adopted the correct manner and appearance without much direction, almost as though it was already inside them somewhere."

It was !! -- it's built-in for almost every Human -- that's how we became the dominant & most aggressive animal (advisive term) on the planet.

Fav. Nuke movies -- Dr Strangelove, On the Beach.
Fav. book -- my cousins biography - "Cold War Spook" or "I was infront of the front lines" (working titles).

[BillSlim]

Other than it being a metropolitan area, I can't remember anything in Dundee that was worth calling a target, (mind you some parts of the city looked like they had been hit already!!)

The H.Q of 28 Group, ROC and HQ UKWMO Caledonian Sector still exists at Craigiebarns (link). That would probably have been a target, as would have both Tay bridges.
The films 'The Hole in the Ground' and 'Sound an Alarm' liked to assume that ROC group and UKWMO Sector H.Qs were not targets. Mind you both films would be pretty short and unable to explain the roles of the ROC and UKWMO if bombs hit those H.Qs. 

I believe the posts were fairly robust, so I'd imagine that you'd survive relatively close blasts. Hungry survivors were probably more of a danger as I'd think they might see ROC posts as a potential source of food and possibly also as a form of authority to blame for the attacks.

[simmie]

I haven't been to group since the stand down party in 92.  I know the interiour of the pltting room floor is now at the Secret Bunker in Fife.

My late father was down there and saw it all set up, he was also my Chief Obs (Corporal).

I don't remeber ever hearing what would happen if group went down.  It is possible that the cluster Master post (3-4 posts were grouped in clusters, 1 post was the Master, they acted as group if the land lines went down and used their radio to contact Group direct) could use the radio to contact other group HQ's such as Edinburgh, Aberdeen or Inverness.

The posts were a concrete box sunk 12ft or so under ground.  The only things above the ground were the entrance, an air vent, a steel pipe for the Fixed Survey Meter (FSM), a radiation monitoring device.

As for trouble with survivors, we had enough trouble with CND types picketing posts during exercises.  They claimed that the vents were where the radiation came from, also they accused us of actually launching missiles!!!!!.  Also ,the ration packs were sometimes doggy.  I particular the Oatmeal biscuits that liquified in sealed packets!!! yummy!!

[rickshaw]

I don't remeber ever hearing what would happen if group went down.  It is possible that the cluster Master post (3-4 posts were grouped in clusters, 1 post was the Master, they acted as group if the land lines went down and used their radio to contact Group direct) could use the radio to contact other group HQ's such as Edinburgh, Aberdeen or Inverness.

The posts were a concrete box sunk 12ft or so under ground.  The only things above the ground were the entrance, an air vent, a steel pipe for the Fixed Survey Meter (FSM), a radiation monitoring device.

Thats how they're described in the book I read about the UK's "secret bunkers".  I couldn't imagine being expected to wait out a nuclear attack and the resulting fallout in a small box underground like that.  You'd be better off than the common citizenry who were expected to do it in a hole they'd dug in the ground and covered in a couple of doors and some sandbags but not by much IMO.  :-(

[Joe C-P]

I grew up north of NYC, far enough to be out of the blast radius, and during one of those drills in 6th grade I asked my teacher why we needed this practice, and he explained, rather unseriously, about some near-sighted Soviet navigator flying well off course.

I had a childish faith that the Soviets really didn't want to get blown up, so I never really worried they'd do the same to us.

Nowadays I live a few miles west of the old former Nike anti-missile bases. I do sometimes wonder if they'd actually have worked, but am very glad we never found out.

[BillSlim]

I believe that if group went down that another group (or groups) would take over control of its posts. That scenario is shown in 'Sound an Alarm' where, IIRC, it is mentioned that one group is doing the job of three.
The CND types could be amazingly ignorant of the subject they were involved in. A mate of mine currently at uni once went to a meeting because they were showing the film 'Threads' (only reason he went) and the CND members didn't understand the concept of 'half-life', or nuclear decay. They just thought that everything stayed radioactive for ever.   

The Nike ABM system should have worked very well. It is an interesting fact not often mentioned by those against ABM that the US Army had achieved skin-to-skin kills of a Lance as far back as the '60s, plus Nike-Hercules had a small atomic warhead, which would have made it even easier for the missile to destroy any incoming warheads.