A Question

[ysi_maniac]

Argentine TV footage after they took Stanley (as shown on the BBC) definately did not show WWII Amtrac's they were the more modern closed in ones with a turret (whatever they are)

I think I remember the same footage (but seen in TVE, spanish TV). Any way this is whiff and an upgraded WWII AMTRAC can look really cool B)  B)  B)  

[Mossie]

The Task Force did bring back a Huey as a war prize which flew as G-Huey from what i remember.

G

They also brought back a Pucara as well.  It was evaluated at Boscombe Down & did the rounds on the airshow circuit in the years after the war.
British Pucara on Airliners.net

I know they took some of the Oerlikon cannons & after evaluation the radar units where used to test pilots on exercise.  They where dotted around the country without pilots knowledge & they were there to simulate hostile radar.  Also useful for checking if anyone was breaking the 250m limit!

Theres rumours a T-34 was taken too & eventually ended up in a museum here in England, but I might be wrong.

[Excalibur]

Not that I'm finished yet, but where do we post pics of our Falklands builds?  

[AeroplaneDriver]

I started a thread for finished builds, but seperate 'in-progress' threads are also welcome.

[Ian the Kiwi Herder]

Theres rumours a T-34 was taken too & eventually ended up in a museum here in England, but I might be wrong.

Pretty sure that's an Urban Myth although I heard that one too. IIRC, Academy/Minicraft released their !:35 AAV7 in Argentine markings complete with sharks teeth, although that doesn't mean it was used in the 1982 'unpleasentness'.

Ian

[Mossie]

A bit of info, not exactly for the GB, but the Airfix 1/72 Falkands War 25th Aniversary set will include a Puma, Gazelle, Chinook & Pucara.  The Pucara will be Special Hobbys kit, not a new tool & the Chinook the Italeri kit previously offered by Airfix.

I find it's often worth waiting a for few months after these boxed sets are released as they often go for bargins & you get several kits for silly money.  Worth it even if your not interested in the aircraft itself, plenty to add to whiff's & the spares box!

[Archibald]

Hmm, whatif Argentina has bought the Franklin Delano Roosevelt in the late 70's ?

[Mossie]

I imagine it would have suffered a similar fate to the General Belagrano unless it was backed up by an effective carrier group & aircraft with ASW capability.  If a large carrier had appeared anywhere in the South Atlantic, I'm sure the Royal Navy would have made every attempt to sink it.

You could expand on that though Archie, say, what if the Argentine Navy could muster a fleet effective enough to engage the task force?  It may have made things much tougher for an amphibious landing & of course naval support of the land campaign.

[Archibald]

Well, it seems France had a big bunch of destroyers of the T-47 and T-53 class. Number amounted to 14 or so. Many of them were ASW ships...

Au fait... well, GB had its nuclear attack subs. What about argentina subs ? How many did they have, and couldn't these ships escort the Belgrano or FDR ?
(I already know the Santa Fe was disabled by Scout / Lynx attack from the Antrim in late april).

I'm curious  

[Mossie]

Heres a Wikipedia list of the Argentinian Naval Forces involved Archie:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_nav...e_Falklands_War

I forgot that Argentina did have a carrier in the form of Veinticinco de Mayo, but it was confined to port after the General Belgrano was sunk along with the majority of the fleet due to the threat of attack by British Submarines.  It was WWII vintage but was still a significant threat.  Argentina had a modern German built diesel submarine, the San Luis which was of serious concern to the Royal Navy, it made a few attacks but these were not successful.  The Argentinaian fleet was a mix of WWII types & some very modern warships.  It ironically included some British built Type 42 destroyers (same class as HMS Sheffield) supplied before the Junta took power.

[Archibald]

Yep I saw that today. Only two submarines ?    Not a true navy... seems that the San Luis was active only in the first two weeks of May, carrying 2 attacks which all failed.

The fact that Argentina had two Type 42 destroyers clearly show stupid and absurd this war was...    

Even better, Argentina nearly bought Lightnings in 1972, instead of
Mirage IIIE    
Drakken could not be bought (Swedish neutrality) American congress said "no" to a Phantom purchase, F-5 was rejected because of low performances, and it seems that they never thought about F-104s. So, what was left ?  

Mirage and Lightnings!

[Archibald]

I'm asking... how many nuclear GB did send to the Falklands ? Conqueror and its sistership ?  
Was the San luis unable to protect a limited  ARA task force ?

Whatif they ARA had grouped its best ships into a powerfull task force ?
25 de Mayo with escort composed of two Type-42s destroyer+San Luis+ 3 d'estiennes d'orves sloops (hmm I have to admit this is a bit weak).

Send them only 300 miles off shore  the coast of Argentina. These ships stay under the umbrella of some land-based Neptunes ASW aircrafts and fighters bombers.
from its position, 25 de Mayo can launch its Skyhawks or SE to the Task force, augmenting range of its naval fighters.

Or, even worse, an escalation of the war, with Mirage III/ Skyhawks based in Port Stanley.

Hmmm I'm asking... Mirage F1 had been build as a STOL fighter from the start (it was part of a big STOL/ VTOL program including Mirage IIIV / Balzac and Mirage G /G8).

Always asked myself if Mirage F1 could have operated from Port Stanley runway...
Whatif Argentina had bought Mirage F1C instead of Mirage IIIE ? (this hapened in 1972, when the Mirage F1 was already flying. Wait two more years and you can have some, as the Greek and Iraqis did...).

[B777LR]

Yep I saw that today. Only two submarines ?    Not a true navy...

Thats 2 more submarines than the danish navy has!  When we bought them secondhand one began to sink when being towed to a shipyard

So whats left?

Mirage and Lightnings!

I saw an illustration of the attack on HMS Sheffield in a book once, and it showed Mirage IVs speeding away from the destroyers (one of them burning)

The fact that Argentina had two Type 42 destroyers clearly show stupid and absurd this war was...   

What has since happened to these? Are they still in service?

[Archibald]

According to wikipedia (hmmm cautious!!!) one of the two is currently is reserve and had been use to provide spare for its sibling (probably sold as a museum) , other is used for a different role (can't remember exactly what role).

No way of having Mirage IV in Falkland war, the -IV was the nuclear bomber. Argentina had Mirage V, a non-radar Mirage IIIE...

Always thought that best way of chasing Argies from the falklands would have been parachuting a naked Thatcher over the island.. seeing such creature falling from the sky, the argies would have jumped on the water and swimmed at full speed up to the coast of Argnetina...

[Mossie]

Even better, Argentina nearly bought Lightnings in 1972, instead of
Mirage IIIE   
Drakken could not be bought (Swedish neutrality) American congress said "no" to a Phantom purchase, F-5 was rejected because of low performances, and it seems that they never thought about F-104s. So, what was left ? 

Mirage and Lightnings!

Hmmm, SHAR up against Lightnings, that would have been interesting.  Mind you, I think we would have been better off, the Mirages were  towards the limit of their range & could not loiter over the Falklands for long.  The Lightning had notoriously short legs, it would have been hardly able to make the Falklands, let alone loiter, without carrying a maximium load of external tanks.  Then it would have to jettison these tanks before reaching the islands, it'd only be a matter of time before the supply was exhausted.

Whatif they ARA had grouped its best ships into a powerfull task force ?
25 de Mayo with escort composed of two Type-42s destroyer+San Luis+ 3 d'estiennes d'orves sloops (hmm I have to admit this is a bit weak).

There were a few other ships that could have formed part of a small but effective force although it would have been a strange mix of WWII & modern types.  One thing to remember, although outdated as far as modern warfare was concerned, the General Belgrano could have caused some serious problems for the British.  The task force may have had the upper hand with guided missiles, but the Belgrano could have them a serious headache or made things very difficult for land forces by opening up on British troop positions.

The de Mayo could also have further distracted the task force, the SHARs & Harriers would have to tangle with aircraft that could loiter for longer & would not be able to carry as out as many strike missions.  The rest of the fleet would have to tangle with with the Argentine destroyers & frigates, this would prevent them from supporting the ground assault.  This had been a serious plus in the war, it may have carried on for longer had the British vessels not been able to 'soften up' the Argentine ground forces.

Had the San Luis been used effectively with the rest of the fleet, it could have been a serious thorn in the side of the task force.  Diesel subs are quiter than nuclear powered boats & therefore harder to detect.  Saying that, it was up against five nuclear subs & one diesel, & the British could have sent more.

The fact that Argentina had two Type 42 destroyers clearly show stupid and absurd this war was... 

These were ordered beofre the Junta took power, & other British equipment had ended up there before Argetina had even raised the idea of soverignity of the islands.  When the issue was first raised by Argentina, the British government was quite happy to negotiate, although they wouldn't let then go for nothing.  Once the Junta stepped in though, negotiations were quickly stopped.  Cancelling the Destroyers order may have seemed like a good idea, but it also may have provoked the Junta.  In the end, they weren't used against the British, more good luck than good judgement, although it may have given them intellignece on how to attack Sheffield.

Heres the list of th British fleet:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_naval...e_Falklands_War

Hmmm I'm asking... Mirage F1 had been build as a STOL fighter from the start (it was part of a big STOL/ VTOL program including Mirage IIIV / Balzac and Mirage G /G8).

STOL may have made a difference, although the Black Buck Vulcans attacked the runway at Stanley, this was largely as a deterent to the Argentines (we can reach your mainland with a nuclear bomber, Galitieri) & the SHAR's & Harriers could have quite easily taken out the runway if neccesary.  A rough field capability would have been more useful, with aircraft able to operate from hastily prepared strips the FAA would have been able to take off from virtually anywhere on the island.


Overall Archie, the outcome of the war could been much different had the Argentine military been properly prepared & had the resolve to fight to keep the islands.  As it was, the junta was not very popular, even in the military.  The Junta had ordered the invasion on the back of rising nationalism & an attempt to distract the Argentinian people from the problems at home.  They really didn't think the British would do anything more than shout in diplomatic circles, & most of the British public wasn't even aware they existed.  So they mounted a half hearted invasion, with little naval support & many conscripted ground troops.  When it became obvious that the British were willing to fight, it still seemed that Britain would not be able to put up much resistance so far from home.  When this became obvious, the Argentine military largely backed off, partially because they knew they didn't have the resources & also because they were aware that Chile may come storming in the back the door at any minute.

The British task force was stretched & a victory was far from certain.  Fortunately, the Argentines surrendered before an assault on Stanley happened, which would probably have made it a much more bloody war than it was.  Had Argentina anticipated the British response, planned better & had more resolve to win (as well as being less distracted by discord within their own population & across the border in Chile, history may be very different.

Always thought that best way of chasing Argies from the falklands would have been parachuting a naked Thatcher over the island.. seeing such creature falling from the sky, the argies would have jumped on the water and swimmed at full speed up to the coast of Argnetina...

    That would have ended the war very quickly!!!  Either that, or parachuting into Buenos Aires, & walking up to Galitieri with a cup & a pair of sharp scissors.......!