A-7 Corsair and F-8 Crusader

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

I agree with a French Navy A-7 Corsair II. Actually, the Corsair II was shortly studied by the Marine Nationale, and industrial agreements already exists between Vought and a French aircraft company (I don't remember which one it was, I'm just sure it wasn't Dassault) for a license production (of the entire plane or just parts, don't know).
Indeed, after the F-8 and the F4U Corsair, the Navy just like Vought products!  But for political, financial and somehow operational reasons, the Jaguar M was preferred and later canceled in favor of the Super Etendard.  I saw three possibilities for a French Corsair II:

-a conventional Corsair II, with no modifications in the avionic suite, but with French conventional weapons (the problem is that such an aircraft will be unable to carry and fire both Exocet and ASMP nuclear missile.
-a modified Corsair II with French electronic suite and a Agave radar would have been able to carry the entire French arsenal, including anti-ship missiles, nuclear weapons and AS-30L laser guided heavy missile.
-later, the Corsair II will be modernized with a new avionic (Anemone PESA radar, new ECM and ECCM etc...), maybe a new engine (Dry M53??)

For the F-8, I'm actually building a heavily modified (most of modifications are internal) Crusader for HAF. It's a former Crusader F-8E modified by French industrials in the late 1990's.  It has no folding wing, and no variable incidence too: it allowed much more internal fuel, two additional pylons for heavy weapons.
For the fuselage, a centerline pylon was added in order to carry the AN/AAQ-14 laser designator (later replaced by Damocles), while two lateral pylons were fitted under the fuselage, just under the air-air pylons.  I have to draw something in order to show you the possible configurations.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I agree with a French Navy A-7 Corsair II. Actually, the Corsair II was shortly studied by the Marine Nationale, and industrial agreements already exists between Vought and a French aircraft company (I don't remember which one it was, I'm just sure it wasn't Dassault) for a license production (of the entire plane or just parts, don't know).  Indeed, after the F-8 and the F4U Corsair, the Navy just like Vought products!  But for political, financial and somehow operational reasons, the Jaguar M was preferred and later canceled in favor of the Super Etendard.  I saw three possibilities for a French Corsair II:

-a conventional Corsair II, with no modifications in the avionic suite, but with French conventional weapons (the problem is that such an aircraft will be unable to carry and fire both Exocet and ASMP nuclear missile.
-a modified Corsair II with French electronic suite and a Agave radar would have been able to carry the entire French arsenal, including anti-ship missiles, nuclear weapons and AS-30L laser guided heavy missile.
-later, the Corsair II will be modernized with a new avionic (Anemone PESA radar, new ECM and ECCM etc...), maybe a new engine (Dry M53??)

For the F-8, I'm actually building a heavily modified (most of modifications are internal) Crusader for HAF. It's a former Crusader F-8E modified by French industrials in the late 1990's.  It has no folding wing, and no variable incidence too: it allowed much more internal fuel, two additional pylons for heavy weapons.
For the fuselage, a centerline pylon was added in order to carry the AN/AAQ-14 laser designator (later replaced by Damocles), while two lateral pylons were fitted under the fuselage, just under the air-air pylons.  I have to draw something in order to show you the possible configurations.

All of the modifications that you have described so far are very interesting and I am looking forward to seeing some more of your magnificent drawings/profiles.  I agree with the suggestions on the fixed wing F-8, I think that is something that could be done away with and allow for increased fuel or electronics in the space saved.  Your suggestion to add an additional stores pylon under the fuselage has me asking where are you going to find room? There is precious little room on the underside of both the Crusader and the Corsair II.  Both aircraft sit quite low, so low in fact that you would be better off placing an additional stores pylon on the wing making it three per side and one on the wing tip for an AAM.  A simple kit-bashing between an F-8 and an A-7 kit would resolve a lot of problems by providing a source for the newer "T"bar catapult launch equipment as well as the solid wing and dual wheels for the nose landing gear.  Another possibility would be to modify the forward fuselage of the F-8 to accomodate the Vulcan cannon port from the A-7D/E and the retractable IFR probe that was common to the A-7E (this would allow you to just mate the forward fuselage section of the A-7 to the F-8 instead of performing major surgery on a small section of the fuselage).

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

All of the modifications that you have described so far are very interesting and I am looking forward to seeing some more of your magnificent drawings/profiles.

Thanks Jeffry!!

Actually, I still very enjoy reading all the forum's threads, but as I'm now a senior student and I have a LOT of work to do for the university and the lab I work for. So I had to reduce my whi projects!  But a HAF splintered F-8S Super Crusader is still in my current projects!!

I agree with the suggestions on the fixed wing F-8, I think that is something that could be done away with and allow for increased fuel or electronics in the space saved.  Your suggestion to add an additional stores pylon under the fuselage has me asking where are you going to find room? There is precious little room on the underside of both the Crusader and the Corsair II.  Both aircraft sit quite low, so low in fact that you would be better off placing an additional stores pylon on the wing making it three per side and one on the wing tip for an AAM.

Well, for the new under-fuselage pylons (well, actually more "hard points" than pylons), I thought of the lateral one on the Crusader III. You see what I mean? The points for the Sparrow missiles!!
I initially thought about lateral points for a LANTIRN system, and later I thought that it could be much more cool if those stations could carry AMRAAM, MICA or GBU-12 as well!!

What I initially wanted was to imagine a "Super Crusader vs Super Starfighter" above the Aegean Sea,against HAF F-8S and Turkey F-104.

For my Super Crusader, I realized that I only talked about the external changes, while the most important modernizations will be internal!! For this particular Super Crusader, the HAF chose to modernize them in France, but USA and Israel also propose modernizations for Crusader:

-Radar: the Super Crusader are fitted with a PESA (later AESA) variant of the RC-400 radar named RDY-4H. It allowed to fire both AMRAAM and MICA, to fly in terrain following modes, it has anti-ship abilities and it could be use to extract coordinates for GPS guided bombs (Enhanced Paveways and later French AASM missiles)
The nose is a little bit longer (but it's quite invisible on my model after painting)

-FLIR: the old FLIR is now replaced by a FLIR sensor build by Thales. It's a miniaturized variant of the Rafale system, but with no TV-traking system (only FLIR).
This system is very useful and stealth when it is used with MICA-IR BVR missiles.

-ECM/ECCM: The F-8S received quite the same electronic and jamming suite than the UAE's Mirage 2000-9. This system allowed the Super Crusader to do SEAD missions without the help of external pods, and it offered to them a very good survivability against new generation air threats.

-Engine: The planes were upgraded with SNECMA M53 engines, for more communality with the HAF Mirage 2000EG and Mirage 2000-5. Of course, the inlet is larger too, just like on the Singaporian A-4s after the F404 integration (I admit that I totally forgot to enlarge the inlet on m model, but now it is painted, I won't change it).

[elmayerle]

A light weight ECM escort model based on the 2 seat TA-7C or Air Force A-7K model.The airframe itself wouldn't be too different,maybe add some RWRs to the intake sides and on the fin.The loadout for the role would be as follows:
2x AIM-9L Sidewinders on fuselage pylons
2x external tanks on inboard pylons
2x ALQ-99 ECM pods on intermediate pylons
2x AGM-45 Shrike or AGM-88 HARM ARMs on outboard pylons.

Sounds like basically an armed operational version of the EA-7L, which was a TA-7C modified to carry ECM pods for training purposes.

[elmayerle]

I was thinking tonight about what would have happened had the Air Force bought F-8s instead of F-4s. figure that it would get a fixed wing like mentioned above and upgrades to the avionics  and later on the engine probably the F-404 like the A-7F. The guns would either stay the same all through its service or a pair of 25mm chain guns replace the 4X 20mm and armed with DU rounds to slice through Hinds and SU-25s.

Er, A-7F had a F100, not a F404.  There were proposals for a twin-F404 A-7 variant, but they never went beyond that (in the late-1970s, the idea had sense as the F404 is made in the district then held by "Tip" O'Neill, then Speaker of the House, and the home state of Senator E.M. Kennedy).  I like the idea of either a F100 or F110 upgrade, here.

Maybe replace the 4x 20mm cannon with a pair of the 30mm mausers from the Viggen?  That'd at least give you ammo compatibility with the A-10.

[Archibald]

I agree with a French Navy A-7 Corsair II. Actually, the Corsair II was shortly studied by the Marine Nationale, and industrial agreements already exists between Vought and a French aircraft company (I don't remember which one it was, I'm just sure it wasn't Dassault) for a license production (of the entire plane or just parts, don't know).
Indeed, after the F-8 and the F4U Corsair, the Navy just like Vought products!  But for political, financial and somehow operational reasons, the Jaguar M was preferred and later canceled in favor of the Super Etendard.  I saw three possibilities for a French Corsair II:

-a conventional Corsair II, with no modifications in the avionic suite, but with French conventional weapons (the problem is that such an aircraft will be unable to carry and fire both Exocet and ASMP nuclear missile.
-a modified Corsair II with French electronic suite and a Agave radar would have been able to carry the entire French arsenal, including anti-ship missiles, nuclear weapons and AS-30L laser guided heavy missile.
-later, the Corsair II will be modernized with a new avionic (Anemone PESA radar, new ECM and ECCM etc...), maybe a new engine (Dry M53??)

For the F-8, I'm actually building a heavily modified (most of modifications are internal) Crusader for HAF. It's a former Crusader F-8E modified by French industrials in the late 1990's.  It has no folding wing, and no variable incidence too: it allowed much more internal fuel, two additional pylons for heavy weapons.
For the fuselage, a centerline pylon was added in order to carry the AN/AAQ-14 laser designator (later replaced by Damocles), while two lateral pylons were fitted under the fuselage, just under the air-air pylons.  I have to draw something in order to show you the possible configurations.

Excellent! In my alternate Aeronavale world, I would take the first idea, for a conventional A-7. Why ? because early USN A-7s (B, C from 1966) used a dry TF-30 engine. This is interesting considering that France know very well this engine, which power the Mirage G.    (SNECMA TF-106 and so on). In this scenario, the Mirage G become a "pocket Tomcat" for the French Navy, with a downgraded F-111B weapon system. By the way, it was Aerospatiale which considered licence building of the A-7, in 1972... 

[SinUnNombre]

Hey all. I have an older issue Revell 1/72 A-7 kit, and I have absolutely no Idea what to do with it. I want to cut it up and upgrade it and make it something really cool, but no light bulbs to this point. Any auggestions? New engine, modern avionics fit, etc etc. Maybe a new nose that comes to a point like the F-8. Things like that. Thanks for any input.

Jon

[jcf]

A-7F

http://www.vought.com/heritage/products/ht...html/ya-7f.html





..or cross-pollinate with the F8U-3



Cheers, Jon

[RLBH]

How about a seagoing A-7F, just to be different? Perhaps with fighter capability to give an alternative to the F-18?

[Mossie]

There was the proposed F-8 Slew-Wing as well, intended as a test bed to carry on the oblique wing research that the AD-1 started.  I just posted a couple of days ago about Sharkit's new conversion set:
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index...showtopic=17846

[Spellbinder99]

I was at a model shop here in Adelaide that primarily deals in second hand model kits having a look around. I found a 1/72 Beriev Be-6 kit for $19 (The box says Playfix but I am pretty sure it is the old VEB kit reboxed, truly horrible picture of a made up model on the cover).

The guy also has a pretty extensive display of larger scratchbuilt and airline display aircraft models and down the back I saw a very large Corsair in RAAF markings. Turns out it belongs to a pilot who was involved in test flying for the RAAF during the Mirage replacement selection process and it was given to him by LTV after he flew the Corsair in trials.

The model is 1/24th scale (we measured it) and very heavy, made of diecast aluminium with a layer of filler putty over it. The surface is pretty heavily corroded and the paint finish has bubbled up and flaked off in many places. The model is at the shop to be restored for the pilot, but sadly he wants it repainted in the markings of the US jet he flew rather than restoring the RAAF markings. The paint scheme appears to be green, brown and black over light grey with very large high visibility RAAF roundels in all six positions and a tail flash.
It is fitted out with a full load of Mk-82 500 pound bombs on the outer stations and a Mk-84 2000 pounder on each inner and early Sidewinders on the fuselage pylons.
It appears to be an A-7D as it has the in flight refuelling receptacle on the fuselage top rather than a retractable IFR probe.

I am going back with a camera to record these semi-official markings so I can model the scheme at a later date, just a pity a little bit of "Whifstory" will not be preserved...

Cheers

Tony

[Jeffry Fontaine]

The guy also has a pretty extensive display of larger scratchbuilt and airline display aircraft models and down the back I saw a very large Corsair in RAAF markings. Turns out it belongs to a pilot who was involved in test flying for the RAAF during the Mirage replacement selection process and it was given to him by LTV after he flew the Corsair in trials.  The model is 1/24th scale (we measured it) and very heavy, made of diecast aluminium with a layer of filler putty over it. The surface is pretty heavily corroded and the paint finish has bubbled up and flaked off in many places. The model is at the shop to be restored for the pilot, but sadly he wants it repainted in the markings of the US jet he flew rather than restoring the RAAF markings. The paint scheme appears to be green, brown and black over light grey with very large high visibility RAAF roundels in all six positions and a tail flash.
It is fitted out with a full load of Mk-82 500 pound bombs on the outer stations and a Mk-84 2000 pounder on each inner and early Sidewinders on the fuselage pylons.  It appears to be an A-7D as it has the in flight refuelling receptacle on the fuselage top rather than a retractable IFR probe.

Now fast forward to a reality where the A-7 had been chosen instead and consider what markings and camouflage it would have been sporting as an operational aircraft.  Would it have eventually been painted in the low-visibility grays or would it have actually continued with the SEA style camouflage?  Would the RAAF have gone with the probe or the the receptacle for the IFR?  Or would they have gone with both features as installed on several USAF aircraft?  The F-100, F-105, F-84, are but three examples that I can remember at the moment.

[KJ_Lesnick]

rallymodeller,

According to the sources I have on hand the Super Crusader was never to have any guns installed, nor was there really anyplace to put them. The Sparrow fit pretty much took up any space for guns -- it even displaced the nosewheel to an off-centerline position. Remember, when the Super Crusader was in the works, guns were way out of fashion. Missiles were the way to go, you know.

What sources do you have on the F8U-3?

[pyro-manic]

Now what about the consequences for other F-4 users: what would the Brits, Japanese, Germans, Israelis et al have bought if the Phantom was just a single-seat attack jet?

I seem to remember seeing a thread somewhere (possibly on Secret Projects?) about a proposal for the Royal Navy to get modified Crusaders - Spey-powered(?) two-seaters, to be built by Short in Northern Ireland. This was in the early 60s IIRC.

EDIT: Here we go: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1406.15.html



Nice looking aircraft.

[SPINNERS]

Bill Gunston's excellent book 'Fighters of the Fifties' confirms that the F8U-3 was to be gunless - "In line with current (1955) thinking on armament, no guns were fitted."