A-7 Corsair and F-8 Crusader

[rallymodeller]

Bill Gunston's excellent book 'Fighters of the Fifties' confirms that the F8U-3 was to be gunless - "In line with current (1955) thinking on armament, no guns were fitted."

While I don't have that book, Warbirds Illustrated Special: Century Series has a section on the F8U-3, which states the same thing, as does "Aviation Fact File: Experimental Aircraft" and Squadron Signal's "F-8 Crusader In Action".

Missiles were the end-all-be-all in the mid-Fifties. The only American fighters in design at the time to have a gun were the F-104 and the F-105, for different reasons. The Starfighter was to be a daylight point-defense fighter with limited armament (the A model had two Sidewinders, a gun and no radar) under Ground-Controlled Intercept, and the F-105 was actually a bomber from the get-go. Even Voodoos lost their guns when they became interceptors.

The thinking that removed the guns from the F8U-3's design did the same to the Phantom while it was still in the design phase.

[Weaver]

Now what about the consequences for other F-4 users: what would the Brits, Japanese, Germans, Israelis et al have bought if the Phantom was just a single-seat attack jet?

I seem to remember seeing a thread somewhere (possibly on Secret Projects?) about a proposal for the Royal Navy to get modified Crusaders - Spey-powered(?) two-seaters, to be built by Short in Northern Ireland. This was in the early 60s IIRC.

EDIT: Here we go: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1406.15.html



Nice looking aircraft.

Excellent Pyro - cheers! 

When I came up with my Paladin concept, I'd no idea that a Spey-Crusader had been seriously studied, although I did know that the two-seater had attracted serious FAA interest during the same European sales tour that sold it to the French.

Paladins here: http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,19781.0.html (scroll back about four pages for the first one)

[Weaver]

Re the F-8U Crusader III: does anyone know what an operational version might have looked like? What I'm thinking is that the nose of the prototype seems too small for a big enough radar, and seems to actually be a solid mounting for an FTI boom.



By the way, I did some profiles of a modified F-8 for the RN called the Palladin here (starting about 4 pages back):

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,19781.0.html

And Pyro then came up with this link for a real proposal:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1406.15.html

[pyro-manic]

Aye, I have a two-hole Paladin on the to-do list, when I can find a suitable donor for the cockpit.

[kiwi_dave]

For the fuselage, a centerline pylon was added in order to carry the AN/AAQ-14 laser designator (later replaced by Damocles), while two lateral pylons were fitted under the fuselage, just under the air-air pylons.  I have to draw something in order to show you the possible configurations.

There is precious little room on the underside of both the Crusader and the Corsair II.  Both aircraft sit quite low, so low in fact that you would be better off placing an additional stores pylon on the wing making it three per side and one on the wing tip for an AAM. 

I am a total novice at this but looking at the A-7 there seems to be space for a targeting or nav pod to be scabbed directly onto the under fuselage if you move/ delete the bump that's already there (assuming its a doppler unit?). That could be relocated or deleted depending on the nav suite used (do aircraft still need a doppler radar?) and it would mean that you'd free up a pylon for weapons or fuel by not carrying the LANA pod. Damocles would be a good choice as the unit combines a targeting FLIR with a nav FLIR so you don't need to carry two pods. The images of Damocles that I've seen look quite large and are possibly too big to fit under the A-7 as is so you may need to repackage it to make it 'flatter'.
Just some thoughts from a novice.

[jcf]

Re the F-8U Crusader III: does anyone know what an operational version might have looked like? What I'm thinking is that the nose of the prototype seems too small for a big enough radar, and seems to actually be a solid mounting for an FTI boom.

The nose radome is the same size as what the production aircraft was planned to carry, the radar was the 24-inch APQ-50.
The F-4 also originally used the APQ-50, when the F-4 was equipped with the larger dish APQ-72 the aircraft acquired its droopy nose.
Whether the F8U-3 could have been re-equipped with a larger diameter dish is a good question as it would require re-design of the intake area... potentially a serious problem.

On the prototypes it does appear to be a metal version for test equipment, this was not unusual for the period.

Jon

[pyro-manic]

With regards to the Super Crusader - if it had been adopted, I suspect it would have been built in a revised version with an added gun at some point, like the F-4E. Perhaps move the belly sparrow trough to one of the sides (would make sense to add one to both sides while doing this), and mount a Vulcan in a blister it's place?

[Weaver]

Re the F-8U Crusader III: does anyone know what an operational version might have looked like? What I'm thinking is that the nose of the prototype seems too small for a big enough radar, and seems to actually be a solid mounting for an FTI boom.

The nose radome is the same size as what the production aircraft was planned to carry, the radar was the 24-inch APQ-50.
The F-4 also originally used the APQ-50, when the F-4 was equipped with the larger dish APQ-72 the aircraft acquired its droopy nose.
Whether the F8U-3 could have been re-equipped with a larger diameter dish is a good question as it would require re-design of the intake area... potentially a serious problem.

On the prototypes it does appear to be a metal version for test equipment, this was not unusual for the period.

Jon

Cheers Jon. (Is there anything you don't know?  )

I agree about fitting a larger radar: the upwards taper of the F8U-3's nosecone seems to indicate that it formed a sort of pre-compression ramp for the intake. If you wanted to make the bulkhead diameter bigger, you'd have to extend it upwards, which would then involve raising the cockpit. No bad thing mind you, but not straightforward.......

[KJ_Lesnick]

SPINNERS,

Bill Gunston's excellent book 'Fighters of the Fifties' confirms that the F8U-3 was to be gunless - "In line with current (1955) thinking on armament, no guns were fitted."

That's weird. 

I would almost have sworn I read that it did.  The source I read it from could have been wrong though 

BTW:  Was Bill Gunston ever wrong?


KJ Lesnick

[KJ_Lesnick]

Out of curiousity, how advanced was the APQ-74?


Weaver,

the upwards taper of the F8U-3's nosecone seems to indicate that it formed a sort of pre-compression ramp for the intake.

Yeah, that would be my guess too.  Looks like just the right shape to produce lots of oblique shocks.


KJ Lesnick

[jcf]

With regards to the Super Crusader - if it had been adopted, I suspect it would have been built in a revised version with an added gun at some point, like the F-4E. Perhaps move the belly sparrow trough to one of the sides (would make sense to add one to both sides while doing this), and mount a Vulcan in a blister it's place?

Wouldn't work.
The single Sparrow trough forward required that the nose gear be offset to starboard and you can't "move it to the side" as the sides are already occupied by the other two troughs. Also, there is simply not enough room in the forward fuselage to add a Vulcan and its ammo drum.

Anyhow, the F-4E was a USAF project, the USN did not acquire internal gun equipped Phantoms and USAF purchase of the F8U-3 would have been highly unlikely.

Jon

[KJ_Lesnick]

Where did the F8U-1 and F8U-2 mount it's bombs?  I remember it had like 4,000 pounds of external ordinance...

KJ

[Shasper]

Not sure about the early Crusaders, but the underwing pylons didnt come in until the F-8E (F8U-3 ?)

Shas

[KJ_Lesnick]

Why didn't they fit underwing pylons on the F8U-3 Super-Crusader?

[pyro-manic]

Wouldn't work.
The single Sparrow trough forward required that the nose gear be offset to starboard and you can't "move it to the side" as the sides are already occupied by the other two troughs. Also, there is simply not enough room in the forward fuselage to add a Vulcan and its ammo drum.

Anyhow, the F-4E was a USAF project, the USN did not acquire internal gun equipped Phantoms and USAF purchase of the F8U-3 would have been highly unlikely.

Jon

Jon: I meant moving the belly Sparrow up to the side of the fuselage next to one of the existing ones. So you'd have two on each side. It would require some modifications to the fuselage, but I'm sure it could be done. As to space for a Vulcan, the F-4E's gun was mounted pretty much externally as far as I can see - only the ammo drum and feed are inside the fuselage. I'm sure a production version of the Super Crusader could incorporate a gun, if it was required.

KJ_Lesnick: The Super Crusader was only built in prototype form - production versions could have had wing pylons.