Typhoons For India?

[nev]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asi...sia/6269653.stm

Completely baseless speculation on my part, but still.  "Yes, of course we will vote for you to be a permanent member of the UN Security Counsel.  180 Typhoons you say?  Yes, of course we can supply those"

[upnorth]

"Supply them?! Heck, we'll give you a license to build them and upgrade them with your own domestic gear to your heart's content.

They'll look just right on a flightline with your SU-30s"

[B777LR]

I still like the Su-30s better. And they should also buy Gripen to replace Mig-21/23/27, and more Mig-29 and Su-30!  

[Howard of Effingham]

"Supply them?! Heck, we'll give you a license to build them and upgrade them with your own domestic gear to your heart's content.

we have already done that with the jaguar which is still in production in india

and iirc, will be done with the hawk too.

trevor

[upnorth]

I think India also did that with the Hunter.

I think the best example though is what they did to the Gnat when they turned it into the Ajeet. They did the very thing the Gnat's designer wanted to do (single seat fighter) that the MoD would have nothing to do with and got a hell of a machine out of it.

Got to hand it to those folks at HAL, they really have their act together in a big way.

[Shasper]

Is the Tiffy in the same comp. for a MiG-23/27/29 and M2k replacement? IIRC the Rafale & Gripen are in it (among the other contenders), but domt remember if the EFA made the cut.

Shas B)

[GTX]

Is the Tiffy in the same comp. for a MiG-23/27/29 and M2k replacement? IIRC the Rafale & Gripen are in it (among the other contenders), but domt remember if the EFA made the cut.

Yes, I believe the typhoon is still in the comp - though I may be wrong.  I also believe the F-18E/F and MiG-29 development are as well.

Regards,

Greg

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

I think that the Typhoon and the Rafale are still not official contenders to the market (but well, even the market itself is not really clear), but whatever, they will be for sure!!

But this all story is something really strange (like every aerospace market in India!!). Initially, the need was for 126 (I believe) new light aircrafts in order to replace light fighters: Mig-21, Mig-23, Mig-27 and the older Mig-29, Mirage 2000 and Jaguar!

But finally, due to the eternal delays (initially, the contract had to be signed with Dassault arround 10 years ago now!!), the Mirage 2000 will all be refit to the Mirage 2000Mk2 standard (multipurpose), some of the Mig-27 too and a large part of the Mig-29 (to the MRCA standard!)...
During this time, the "light fighter" program was completely changed for two reasons: the Super Hornet enter the race (and so will the Rafale and the Typhoon) while the Mirage 2000 just stop beeing produced, and in the same time, the Indian chose the LCA as their new standard aircraft!!!

Well, in one word: if they chose a too big aircraft (Typhoon or Super Hornet, maybe Rafale too), the plane will be too expensive to have 126 of them, and they will be closer to a Su-30 than a "light" fighter!!
And if they chose a really "light" fighter like the Gripen, it could be a threat to tir national program (the LCA Tejas)


-The F-16E has the advantage to be the contender which is the closest to the initial needs (i.e. Mirage 2000-5)...
-But for just a little higher price, the Rafale offer better performances, and more common systems with the Mirage 2000s.
-And during this time, the Mig-29 MRCA will be operationnal, so will the Mig-29K, giving to the Mig-35 a very good oportunity to win the market!!
-But as you guys already noticed, the Typhoon, even if it is less adapted to the initial needs (too close in its purpose to the Su-30 and probably too expensive) will probably be one of the best solution for the Indian industry!!

For me, those four planes are the best contenders, and the battle for this market will probably be fabulous!!! Moreover if we believe the rumors from IAF, telling that maybe more than 126 planes could be buy!!

[Geoff_B]

PDS

India initially required an off the shelf fighter to replace the numerous Mig-21's it had in service whilst the development of its own LCA proceeded.. The initilal four contenders being the Mig-29, Mirage 2000, F-16 and Gripen.

Since then various changes have occured, Boeing jumped in with an offer of the F-18, Sukhoi did the same with more of its Su-30's, BAE following successful business on both the Jaguar and then the Hawk were then cleared to offer the Typhoon, and Dassault offered the Rafale as the Mirage 2000 production had finished and its Rafale were finally starting to be produced.

In terms of what India will actually start negotions on now thats another matter, they are still cautious about relying on US sourced product for its fontline operations. The farce over the sanctions that delayed the LCA and led to the problem in the first place will not be forgotten, this in effect casts some doubt over the F-16, F-18 and even Gripen with its US engine. The fact that Pakistan uses the F-16 and is getting more will likely deter that choice, even with lockheed trying to offer the latest versions as whilst things are peaceful they may not always be. The same problem goes for the Su-30 as India was not impressed to discover Sukhoi dealing with the Chinese and its east inies neighbours.

The Mig-35 (upgraded Mig-29) has alot on offer as it would match the current upgrade and be compitable with the naval variant on order.

The Rafale and Typhoon whilst more expensive however do offer more oppertunity for Indian industry giving them greater interaction with European technology and manufacturers. This may be handy in dveloping their own MCA aircraft or they may even see direct involvement with either Typhoon or Rafale as an equal partner.

What ever choice is made the negotiations will be long and hard to iron out the best deal possible for india.

G

[Maverick]

at the risk of sounding nasty (apolgies in advance, no offense intended):

what about Pakistan?  Aircraft of the calibre that have been mentioned are quite serious machines.  One would have thought such a sale would be a distabilising influence in an already volitile area?

It actually reminds me of when Jacques Chirac (sorry about the spelling Archie) authorised the sale of Mirage F-1s and Exocets to Iraq.

Could we potentially expect similar events in say 10yrs or so...?

Regards,

Mav

[nev]

Geoff makes a good point about alternate suppliers of equipment for countries like India, Taiwan, etc.  Not the most cost-effective, but you should be able to rely on at least one supplier to stand by you

[Geoff_B]

at the risk of sounding nasty (apolgies in advance, no offense intended):

what about Pakistan?  Aircraft of the calibre that have been mentioned are quite serious machines.  One would have thought such a sale would be a distabilising influence in an already volitile area?

It actually reminds me of when Jacques Chirac (sorry about the spelling Archie) authorised the sale of Mirage F-1s and Exocets to Iraq.

Could we potentially expect similar events in say 10yrs or so...?

Regards,

Mav

The US are already supplying additioanl F-16's and getting the existing ones upgraded. Pakistan is also working with China on the FC-1 and FCT-1 as Mig-21/J-7 replacements. Some indication as well that they have ordered the J-10 from China as well after they had to reduce their F-16 buy following the earthquake.

It India's neighbours upgrading that is pushing the new fighter buy as she is very aware of her past foes rearming. They have also gone on a diplomatic offensive and have signed treaties with China to secure that Himalayan border, they are also trying to establish normal relations with Pakistan in order to reduce tentions. However governments can change and these border hotspots can easily be reignited.

G

[GTX]

I must admit that I've always been amused at India having such a powerful military - after all who do they think would be stupid enough to invade them and then have to administer 1 Billion + people?!!!  I've always felt that India's military purchases and especially it's nuclear weapons were more for domestic consumption.

Regards,

Greg

[Maverick]

this is actually a pet peeve of mine and isn't restricted 2 India.

These nations have some of the most depressing social situations on the planet, and yet they have air forces, armies & if theyre within spit of water, a navy.  & then some especially effluent types have nukes (no that isnt misspelt).

add to the mix our wish to supply these arms and uve got a seriously sad issue.

OK, soapbox is gone & this keyboard is giving me the shites.

mav

[Geoff]

I must admit that I've always been amused at India having such a powerful military - after all who do they think would be stupid enough to invade them and then have to administer 1 Billion + people?!!!
Regards,

Greg

We did