The Falklands And The Task Force

[Mossie]

Whatif France  helped GB, sending the Foch or the Clemenceau ? The Crusaders were already old at the time, but the Super Etendards had just entered service...
This could a good pretext to scrap the Crusaders and replace it by a batch of second-hand Hornets... Shut up, Mr Dassault!

That might not be too much of a stretch Archie.  France was under a lot of pressure from Britain to help out during the war.  Britain wasn't happy when they found out France was selling some very capable equipment to Argentina & miffed to say the least when it was sinking their fleet.  They were supposed to be allies after all.  The same applied with the Swiss, they'd provided some very potent radar guided Oerliken anti-aircraft guns.

The French politicians smiled sweetley, said 'yes, of course we're freinds, this was only business after all!' & swallowed all the humble pie the Brits could dish up.  Most of the help was technical info on the aircraft & weapons or intelligence on the numbers & location.  What if you pushed it a little further though?  French troops & equipment?  Possibly in British uniform & markings?  That amount of humble pie might have been a little too much for the French to keep down!

Which is why we paint the Aussie A-4's in a unique colour scheme...If the British were to "borrow" a carrier it would be likely a commonwealth one than an American one....I think it would be an interesting scenario with HMAS Melbourne in the mix....

The two tone greys scheme that the Aussie Skyhawks were wearing in 1982 might have been different enough from the FAA's brown/green over pale grey.  You could always add some kind of inavasion markings.

Whatif Argentina had bought some F1E (= M53). With this improved engine, range was better. The extra power of the M53 could have een very useful to carry two excocet, a huge 2200 l drop tanks, magics and ECM pods (again, the raqis did that... ith the Atar!)

The Mirage F-1 might have made some difference.  The Mirage III's didn't have much time to habg around, they were pretty much at their range limit.  The F-1's might have been able to tangle more with the Sea Harriers, maybe shooting some down.

[Lawman]

Actually, Melbourne's greatest help would probably be as a carrier for S-2 Trackers with AWACS (or ex-USN E-1 Tracers). Having had Invincible not live up to her name (i.e. being damaged by an Exocet strike), the RN puts together a massive force of Hermes, Bulwark, Illustrious, (Invincible if repaired in time), Melbourne, and a couple of converted containerships!

As for a Clemenceau as CVA-01, if the French got three, then the UK would definitely need to buy four - can't have the French having more carriers!  
The other thing is that if the UK started building Clemenceaus at the same sort of time as France, ideally a slightly larger version, then four or even five would be a possibility. In the '50s, you had Mountbatten as a very strong advocate of the Navy's carriers, and of course the RAF would be promised its Skybolts at the time, and thus not fight as hard against the carriers. Ideally, you then see replacement of the Sea Vixen, Buccaneer, Etendard etc with a single type in the mid '60s. Probably something along the lines of the F-1M, but with a British engine larger than the Spey, with thrust around 15,000lb dry and 22,000 in reheat.  

[Archibald]

Whatif France  helped GB, sending the Foch or the Clemenceau ? The Crusaders were already old at the time, but the Super Etendards had just entered service...
This could a good pretext to scrap the Crusaders and replace it by a batch of second-hand Hornets... Shut up, Mr Dassault!

That might not be too much of a stretch Archie.  France was under a lot of pressure from Britain to help out during the war.  Britain wasn't happy when they found out France was selling some very capable equipment to Argentina & miffed to say the least when it was sinking their fleet.  They were supposed to be allies after all.  The same applied with the Swiss, they'd provided some very potent radar guided Oerliken anti-aircraft guns.

The French politicians smiled sweetley, said 'yes, of course we're freinds, this was only business after all!' & swallowed all the humble pie the Brits could dish up.  Most of the help was technical info on the aircraft & weapons or intelligence on the numbers & location.  What if you pushed it a little further though?  French troops & equipment?  Possibly in British uniform & markings?  That amount of humble pie might have been a little too much for the French to keep down!

Which is why we paint the Aussie A-4's in a unique colour scheme...If the British were to "borrow" a carrier it would be likely a commonwealth one than an American one....I think it would be an interesting scenario with HMAS Melbourne in the mix....

The two tone greys scheme that the Aussie Skyhawks were wearing in 1982 might have been different enough from the FAA's brown/green over pale grey.  You could always add some kind of inavasion markings.

Whatif Argentina had bought some F1E (= M53). With this improved engine, range was better. The extra power of the M53 could have een very useful to carry two excocet, a huge 2200 l drop tanks, magics and ECM pods (again, the raqis did that... ith the Atar!)

The Mirage F-1 might have made some difference.  The Mirage III's didn't have much time to habg around, they were pretty much at their range limit.  The F-1's might have been able to tangle more with the Sea Harriers, maybe shooting some down.

Blame Dassault! The guy don't give a damn about what its governement do or tell!

For example, when France nearly went at war against Lybia in Tchad in the 80's, Muhammar nevertheless send its damaged Mirage V and F-1s to France for repairs!!  :dum:
What Dassault did with Iraq was even worse... not only F-1EQ, but also Mirage 4000s and 2000N (without ASMP of course!)

In fact Dassault tried to sell 4000 to Iraq when the AdA only had 2000s... same thing for the Mirage F-1s, the -EQ were much better than the -C of the AdA... just imagine what could have happened in GW.1!!!

For info, France revealed some parameters of the Exocet missile to the RN.

If needed, some TCD (orage or sirocco LPA) could be sent with the Foch Ironically, one the old TCD had been recently sold to Argentina!

[B777LR]

So following ideas i like (for an alternative argentine force)

Argentine navy:
Argentinian navy clemenceau.
Super Etendard
Etendard
F-8
E-2
Perhaps more submarines?

Argentine air force:
Mirage F-1
A-7
A-6
A-4
Mirage III

That leaves bombers and fighters for both navy and air force!

[GTX]

I think it would be an interesting scenario with HMAS Melbourne in the mix....

Definitely an interesting idea - damn, now I've got to rethink by entire Falklands GB idea!

I remember reading something about the Brits requesting Austtralian support in the way of HMAS Melbourne.

Hadn't heard that one - I know there was talk of sending a sqn of Mirages to help.

Regards,

Greg

[Archibald]

Whatif Argentina had a TRUE tanker ? (not KC-130). Think about second hand 707, but other aircraft are strong possibilities...  

[Archibald]

Other think... Port Stanley runway was quite short, that's right.
BUT the Mirage F-1 had been build for that.. I mean, high wing with flaps...

The STOL Mirage F (F2, F1, F3)   was a backup in the case the VTOL Mirage failed (they did)

Now that's an idea... Sharkit Balzac in Argentinian markings !!    (no weapon load, 12 minutes range!)

[Geoff]

Other think... Port Stanley runway was quite short, that's right.
BUT the Mirage F-1 had been build for that.. I mean, high wing with flaps...

But what if we had sold them Jags, with the Shamsir's radar nose and Excets in pace of the later A-4s?  

[Archibald]

Cool idea!!  

Why not land-based Jags (A or mk 1) for the Air Force, and some Jaguars M for the navy (with Exocets!) ?

I like the Scooter, but Jag, A-7 or Super Etendard were a generation ahead...

Another interesting whatif is the Mirage VF. Israel bought 50 aircrafts in 1966 but due to the embargo they were mothballed until 1972. In the end, the AdA took over these aircrafts and used it until 1993.
50 Mirage V for Argentina ? Planes loaned in 1971, waiting for Mirage F-1C or -E in the late 70's...

A member of this forum recently build a superb Sea Jaguar in RN markings...

[Archibald]

Depends from a lot of thing.. in the sheffield case, the warhead did'nt detonated, but the solid rocket motor spread fire across the ship.
If the missile works correctly, maybe two or three would be necessary.
Unless you hit the island of the carrier, killing the officers and destroying the controls...I think a standard Exocet would only make a big hole on the hull (2 meters diameter). The ship can survive to that... if there's no fire, or if the fire is controlled.
Well, IHMO...  

[Excalibur]

I think it would be an interesting scenario with HMAS Melbourne in the mix....

Definitely an interesting idea - damn, now I've got to rethink by entire Falklands GB idea!

I remember reading something about the Brits requesting Austtralian support in the way of HMAS Melbourne.

Hadn't heard that one - I know there was talk of sending a sqn of Mirages to help.

Regards,

Greg

Where would the Aussie Mirages airbase be? Could just be sleep dep as I'm at the end of a nightshift but I'm thinking secret Chilean airfields....what? its whatifery after all....  

[Archibald]

Let's go fot a list of possible aircrafts for both sides... it's a subjective list.

Argentina

Mirage F-1
Mirage IIIE / Mirage V  
Crusader  
A-7 Corsair II
Skyhawk
Super Etendard
Etendard IV
Canberra
Vautour
Mirage IVA

GB

Sea Harrier
Hawker P.1154 Kestrel
Sea Vixen PA.58
Phantom Forrestal
Buccaneer Midway
Crusader
Sea Jaguar
Sea Tornado
A-6 Intruder
Vulcan
Victor
B-52s
Bombcorde


PROJECTS / WHATIFS / PROTOTYPES

Argentina (= French projects)

Balzac / Mirage IIIV
Mirage F2 / F3
Mirage G
Br.1120

GB

SR-177 (freightdog  )
Blackburn P.141 / P.146 / P.159 (my favorite!!)
AFVG
Bac P.45
Hawker P.1173
Hawker P.1121
Naval "baby" TSR-2 for OR-346
Vickers 582
Vickers VG projects (581 to 593  )

Avro 730


AICRAFTS CARRIERS

Argentina

25 de Mayo
Clemenceau
Essex

GB

Invincible
CVA-01
"1952 carrier" (for Zen )  
Ark Royal / Eagle
Gibraltar
Forrestal
Midway
PA.58 Verdun


Feel free to add things!!!    

[Lawman]

How about:

Argentina


- Air Force

Mirage III/V
A-4 Skyhawk


- Navy

Super Etendard (A2A capable version, fitted to use the R530 missile)
A-4 Skyhawk


- Carriers

2 x Essex class




UK


- Royal Air Force (assets deployed)

Mirage IV-UK (Spey engined, with UK avionics and weapons, replacing Vulcan)
B-52
VC-10 tankers (lots of)


- Royal Navy

Mirage F-2-UK (carrierborne, with new UK engine and avionics, pursued in place of the Tornado, as a joint RAF/RN/French project)
Hawkeye


- Carriers

4 x PA-58 as CVA-01, approx 45-50,000 tons, with 45-50 aircraft airwing

[nev]

Just out of interest, exactly how many exocets would it take to sink ships like Hermes and Invincible? Could one lucky shot do it, if it hit something important?  



O.K.

Depends.  I know carriers are usually built much tougher than regular ships-of-the-line, they are after all the number 1 target in any fleet, but what are the materials in the ships like?  I remember reading about how the RN learned a lot of hard lessons in the Falklands, like using electrical cabling that doesn't burn and give off smoke...

Eddie served on carriers, and was a fireman type person, he's the man to ask I reckon

[GTX]

Where would the Aussie Mirages airbase be? Could just be sleep dep as I'm at the end of a nightshift but I'm thinking secret Chilean airfields....what? its whatifery after all...

Not really sure (though Chile does sound appropriate).  I think the plan was shelved when it was realised the confusion (not to mention danger) that would result since Argentina also had Mirages.

Regards,

Greg