Dilema

[Geoff_B]

Hey Up Guys

I have noticed a problem with the very nature of the forum, whilst striving to avoid being elitist and JMN'ish that we have encountered elsewhere we seem unwilling to dare to be critical of each others work.

Now obviously nit picking fine details or accuracy is bordering toward being overcritical, but as its become so un_PC on here its getting noticable that some constructive critism or advice appear to be lacking as nobody is prompted to speak for fear of being branded a JMN.

What do we do about it, we have new enthusiastic members exploring the what-if modelling side but are really in need of help and advice to bring their skill levels up to match the projects they have in mind. I know some do offer help and advise via PM's but not always and constantly offering praise without advice could seriously backfire should the new modeller. Boyed by the praise on here he then presents said model to the more general modelling public and runs foul of the more heartless JMN's !!.

You'll notice a well done model receives praise from all quarters of the forum, but some will abstain rather than offer advice on other entries.

Not sure how many of you will have noticed this, or are willing to admit to it but i do think we should think about it and try and come up with some form acceptable guidelines before own inbred Political Correctness kill us !!.

Geoff

[Aircav]

I know what your saying Geoff and I've noticed it as well, the site does lack helpful hints, constructive criticism or what ever your going to call it. I know some sites only allow it by PM's but then everyone else is missing out on a tip that may be very helpful indeed, the only thing you need to watchout for is how the comments are worded, things like "Have you tried" or "sometime I've..." instead of "Well thats wrong or "You could of done better by..." I would also hope that if someone did see something that would help with one of my models that they would say, we are all here to learn and be inspired.

[Brian da Basher]

That's an interesting thought, Geoff. I think truly constructive criticism is not a bad idea, but it can lead to a slippery slope that may end in slagging. I tend to follow the rule of only offering positive commentary on the builds that are presented as I don't want to discourage anyone. Personally, I'm well aware of the (numerous) flaws in my own projects. I'd only feel comfortable offering constructive criticism if the modeller requested it.

Brian da Basher

[PanzerWulff]

I welcome all constructive criticisim you wish to send my way dear friends, sharing ones thoughts and opinions is welcomed by me wholeheartedly.And now that Geoff has pointed it out I think back and notice some of the points he makes we do seem to be more inclined to praise one another than offer suggestions or advice than other forums I have been on.Of cource I have yet to see anyone so full of themself that they have their head up their arse and claim their sniffing roses here either.you make a good point Geoff Thanks

[anthonyp]

I wouldn't necessarily call it a problem.  A quirk of like-minded hobbyists gathering in one place, more likely.

But, yeah, I noticed it too.  However, I take the prevailing attitude here as either "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" sorta thing, or, more my case, "That subject doesn't interest me, so I'm not going to comment."  Now, does that mean I'll not respond to a really well done model no matter what the subject?  No, rather, it has to be a real attention grabber to make me appreciate it.

I do offer suggestions when I think they might be helpful or spur other ideas, though.  But I do not critique other's paint jobs, seams, etc., as I look at my own builds and think "I do whifs for fun, as that's the only way THAT model is an acceptable build."  If I wanted my skills to be critiqued, I'd post at any of the other various modeling sites during the build (prior to application of paint and decals) on the net.  Here, I just don't really care if I screw up some seams, or get a fingerprint or nine on the glass.

I have ideas that I want to see done.  That someone else might appreciate them is a bonus.  If they don't, eh, so what, I felt like sharing.  I've had quite a few models where there were no comments, and it never deterred me from posting again (ain't that the truth?).  I don't post here to be critiqued, unless I ask for it (and thanks to my ego, I seldom do )

I think this place is more idea driven than actual build driven.  Ideas are critiqued more than the skills of the builder.  Well, maybe "critique" isn't the word I'm looking for, rather, "fleshed out."  Ideas spur more discussion here than the models themselves in more cases than not.

If a modeler wants their skills to get better, there's places on this forum to post questions.  Like you said, people trade PM's to get advice, sometimes they start a thread with an idea and there's some discussion about the subject.  Or, if they want to get better, there's my motto of "Practice, practice, practice... and then practice, practice, practice, practice...  etc, ad nauseum, infinium...  in a week..."

Scratch-building and kit-bashing are about the only skill subjects that I think should have their own sub forum for tips and techniques, but there's plenty of places on the web to get advice for that.

I dunno, if more constructive critiques are wanted on the site, maybe have a place on here similar to ARC (or is it one of the other sites, I forget), where you post a build at your own risk.  Have the forum be strictly for critiques of the builds themselves, as the rest of this forum does pretty good at fleshing out ideas when they're presented (the French Louisiana thread in the Alternate History section is a good example...  what it is, like 17 pages now?).  Or, maybe create a forum for completed builds only, and turn the "Workbench" section into a free-fire critique zone.

[ysi_maniac]

That's an interesting thought, Geoff. I think truly constructive criticism is not a bad idea, but it can lead to a slippery slope that may end in slagging. I tend to follow the rule of only offering positive commentary on the builds that are presented as I don't want to discourage anyone. Personally, I'm well aware of the (numerous) flaws in my own projects. I'd only feel comfortable offering constructive criticism if the modeller requested it.

Brian da Basher

I agree 100% with BdaB and anthonyp

[AeroplaneDriver]

I agree with Anthony that a "Critiques Invited" forum where builds can be posted with the intention of soliciting input might be a good idea.

If a builder is happy with their skill level and the resulting model stick it in the normal workbench forum, if the builder wants input to improve, then post it in the critique forum with the understanding that we are all mature enough to use phrases like "This works for me..." and "Have you tried..?" as Steve suggests.

I think by the very nature of how we whiffers build a lot of us tend to judge a model more on the idea than the execution, which does tend to lead to a lot of praise regardless of the quailty of the build.  

I think most of us would like to expand and improve our skills and you're right Geoff that the current system doesnt really promote that.

[Archibald]

the French Louisiana thread in the Alternate History section is a good example... what it is, like 17 pages now?).

30!  

What to say...
- all builders does not have the same skills, nor the same materials, kits or money available (some countries are  deserts-like concerning modelism).
- critics are much more difficult to make than cheers comments
- reactions to a critic are unpredictable, ranging from "I have to learn some tips, that's right" to flaming, hots answers...
- I agree there's too nice comments on the board, not enough critics. I noticed that, too.
- this a collateral effect of having only  nice people here (why is life so complex ?
)

That's the problem of exposing work to critics...

In my case I recognize that I'm too shy to critize works of members of this forum!

[nev]

Hmm, its an interesting topic.  I know what Geoff is getting at, but when it comes to other peoples models I am most assuredly an "if you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".  And as a bog-standard OOBer I certainly wouldn't dare point out the flaws in someone else's model, Lord knows mine have enough of their own.

Regarding a "critique" section - it may not be all its cracked up to be.  The one on ARC is not really a critique section at all, more of a place to show finished models.  OTOH the one on Armorama is veritable bear-pit of rivet-counting JMNs!  Indeed, it even states in the forum rules that posts which say things like "nice, very well done model" will be deleted!!

And one mans "critique" or "helpful advice" is another mans slagging off.  I've seen plenty of comments along the lines of "I emailed him and told him [insert long and nit-picky, elitist diatribe] and he got all upset and angry!"

Furthermore, all the advice and critiques in the world ain't gunna enable me to turn out models like Baz or Greg of Wolfik or Matrixone, because they all have one thing that I don't - talent

[Radish]

Ah, Nev, you're such a nice bloke.

I agree there are dangers in advising someone how to improve, but as Wooksta says, "It's my model!".
I'd hate to say something that's aimed to offer help which perversly might cause upset or disatisfaction.

We have a Helpful Hints section already.
Perhaps we should make a greater effort to use that?

We're all on a learning curve. I, for example, shy and retiring that I am, don't do much conversion stuff 'cause it's not my thing really. Neither am I interested in short run or resin models because I can make plenty of stuff in injection moulded stuff (and I've hundreds of those!!)
I can appreciate the skills of others, and go "wow" at those with scratchbuilding talent, but I haven't really the inclination or talent for those, and I'm not bothered either at acquiring such skills.

I'm happy but can still pick up some tips here and there.

And I'm perfectly willing to share anything (but show me a picture of your wife first ).

When we meet at Mercia (rarely for me) or Stafford (once a month) we always talk about our models, what we did, what fitted well or not, etc., paints, techniques and so on. Talking helps people learn but only if they want to listen. (gods that sounds profound )

[SPINNERS]

I love the forum exactly the way it is. Please don't change it!

I've only shown one model here (a delta winged Lightning F7) and, up close, it was a bit rough with intake lips that would have scaled out to about 300mm. But I felt 'safe' showing it on here whereas on other sites I would have been slaughtered.

http://snap25.photobox.co.uk/406387499c1e6...84b364fe98d.jpg

[ysi_maniac]

http://snap25.photobox.co.uk/406387499c1e6...84b364fe98d.jpg

Hi, SPINNERS
I like your lightning F7      

[Shasper]

While I can be very critically-minded, I tend to re-work my responses so that my point does get across & the praise due is given while not coming off as me being a grouchy SOB.

I've noticed what Moai Geoff is addressing, and I think that as long as it's worded right, a heathly crit can pass.
As for a critique forum, you could always re-arrange the current hints n tips board accordingly.

Note: Me personaly, go ahead and point out the flaws on my projects, as I'm not going to care because I know where the ones you CANT see are  



Shas B)

[Rafael]

Me, I'm one of those living in a model desert. In my country, there is a large modelers community. But it is elitist, unforgiving and dispersed. No one wants to advise, only destroy my (I'm personal here) models from idea to execution. When I tried to discuss the ways of casting my own parts, those I approached saw me with a derogatory look. And I'm talking top notch modelers, even US IPMS prizeholders. When I presented my first cast here as a scratchbuilt Convair Charger derivative, I received only good inputs. A celebration of the idea. I know that model has flaws ranging from A to Z. I made the mistakes. and my next model will not be the same, maybe one little microscopic flaw less. I invented methods when nobody here in Caracas believed me. I improvised approaches when nothing is on the stores (serious, not even putties). I returned from a 20+ years of modeling somnolescence because of the encouraging, cheerful attitude of everyone here. Here, I've found generosity I have not seen in years and a common interest in having fun with our activity. I've seen here masters at work and beginners, but everyone has that wich is lacking in others forums members: The courage to go out and say "I Glued THIS together cuz I thought What if..." no matter how warped, misaligned, fingerprinted, undecaled, exquisitely crafted, marvelously painted and masterfully exhibited, there is one thing this forum offers: The joy of sharing.
Gracias.
Rafa

[Madoc]

Folks,

I would favor either a new "Critques Wanted" type forum or a reworking of the "Hints, Tips & Techniques" forum - including moving it up on the page so it's viewable right off.

Anyone who seeks positive and constructive criticism of their work would be free to post their efforts there.

Anyone who doesn't seek such comment would not be obligated to post their works there.

Comments within that forum would be monitored and given only with positive intent.  Comments deemed to miss that intent would be deleted.  This would not be a place to trash other people's works.

I know I'd make use of such a forum and I can plainly see the need for it.  I have seen quite a few models displayed here which are first class in their execution and could easily stand up next to any IPMS National renderings.  Others?  Well, fit & finish is something which takes time to develop and is very apparent when it isn't developed.  Thus the need for good constructive criticism given by Whiffers and not JMN's who trash the whole thing from the outset.

So, bring it on folks!  Bring it on!

Madoc