Dilema

[BlackOps]

I consider myself a middle of the road modeler, I am far from great but not exactly beginner either. I have learned a ton just from watching other in progress builds but I can see where a critique forum could be handy.

I have personaly never felt comfortable pointing out flaws in someone elses work, especially knowing we all come from very different lifestyles and backgrounds. I know as modelers we all see a bunch of flaws in our own work so having someone else point them out could be discouraging to some.

I know sometimes I just feel like getting a quick build done and I tend to get lazy but it doesn't diminish the fun or the urge to share it with everybody. On the other hand if someone can point out a method that is easier and gets better results I'm open to that

I think a critique forum could be good if properly moderated, but I do think critiques should be kept to a specific forum.

[Mossie]

I'd say that except for beginners & maybe some of the younget modellers, most of us know the major problems with our models & what needs improvement.  So then it tends to get into the nitpicky things, like it's 'wrong to use Testors 123 for the camo instead of Tamiya XYZ'.  Most of that kind of info is freely availble on over forums.

I'd say there is a critique on this forum but it doesn't tend to be about modelling & research skills but more about the imagination,  i.e.  'Why not try a T-tail' or 'I prefer the blue camo version over the brown one'.  As AD said, this forums more about the ideas than the execution.

One of the main problem for me with the modelling community is that many people are too keen to pull someones model to bits rather than appreciate the work that's gone into it & that includes the imperfections.  I've yet to see a perfect model & I think I'tll be a long while before I do.  And you know what?  I couldn't care less if I do or don't!  I'll offer hints & tips, but deriding several dozen hours of someones work because they haven't corrected the position of a landing light by 1.5mm happens far too much elsewhere.  I take a lot of pleasure in seeing the product of someones imagination even if the paint job is a bit sloppy.

And after saying all that, I'm not against it as long as it's done fairly!  Just occasionally, this forum can descend into bitchiness & I wouldn't want it to become more frequent.

[markm70]

I'm an experienced modeler and have won awards at IPMS shows and enjoy building to those standards.  I also like to relax, practice new techniques and ideas.  This fourm allows me to show some work with a purpose but not to the exacting standard I use for building a model I plan to show. Belive me I still have a long way to go before I become an expert modeler.

This fourm is just plain FUN!  Don't change a thing!  This is a great place for new modelers to come and show their work with out fear of ridicule.  It is very easy for "Constructive Criticism" to easily turn negative no matter how you put it.  I like to help people come into our hobby and not get discouraged.

How to questions can be and should be asked about in the  "Hints, Tips & techniques" section.  We need to start using it more.

My 2cents worth....Mark

[Maverick]

Hi All,

I have to agree with Rafa's and BlackOps' comments especially.

When I first started modelling as a youngster, it was for the fun of it and for my own enjoyment (ie: a hobby).  By High School, i had run afoul of JMNism when i presentedd a diorama using an Airfix Hurricane.  It was a quick build for a school project and yet one of the older students chimed in with 'but u've used gloss paints', well I'm sorry but I wasn't going out to buy the specific paints for the job just to please.

Then later on in my early adult life, i had gotten into 48th scale in a big way, my quarters on the base was covered in all the heavy metal available of the Vietnam war.  My block officer would come in for a morning inspection more interested in the latest F-111 or F-4 I had crafted than the state of our spotless room.

This was a positive for me as I had spent absolute aeons on each kit, enjoying the detail available in quarter scale and striving for perfection each time.

After leaving the service and returning to 72nd mainly for it's variety, I fell afoul of the JMNs again.  I hadn't displayed a model, but sat in wonder in the local shop at those master crafted kits we all admire.  Over my shoulder came 'yes, well he's actually failed to get the right contrast in the top colours'.  I looked around disgusted as the kit had been built by a friend of mine and had won prizes at the local comp.

The negatives soon outweighed the positives and once I started whiffing in a serious way, I soon saw the looks of distaste when I bought this kit for that.  Along came the internet and JMNs of every size, shape and creed with their ridiculous comments 'oh yes, but that panel line is .03mm too far back'.  The kicker was on Internet modeller when one of their elite described an Italeri F4U.  I'm a huge fan of Italeri's stuff, and I had built a couple of their Corsairs.  The JMN in question berated Italeri for this nice kit on some minor flaw or other, but then proceeded to mention a unit that flew them when it never did.  It was one of those urban legends that some will quote verbatim because some JMN of 'high standing' decided it was so.

For me that was it, I decided that anything I did would never see the light of day unless I was the one looking at it.

Then I came here, I saw the varying degrees of skill and the worthwhile praise associated with each kit.  I saw kits that I liked, loved and didn't like but felt the same sense of peace.  I don't believe it's PC or fear, I believe we are modellers who are willing to do something others won't because we have no fear of being flamed by somebody.  As anthonyp pointed out, if you don't like the kit, the build or the subject, big deal.

It was this feeling that led me to create my first profiles.  After seeing Gekko 1 and others at work, I knew I had little chance of meeting their abilities but I still felt I could contribute my own unique views on some aircraft.  Thus far it has been a success and as an aside a very therapuetic thing for me during my current illness.

A critique forum sure, why not?  But in reality, aren't we our own worst critics anyway?

Thus endeth the lesson, sorry for the novel but I felt it was needed.

Mav (John Lacey, average modeller, worse profiler, 100% whatiffer)

[Nick]

Just a thought from me.

I do like the vast majority of the stuff you guys (and gals!) put up on here but when I see that 15 people have already made comments on the lines of "Great work" or "Fantastic stuff, where's my knitting gear/ change of pants?" etc then I tend not to post as it feels like a bit of a boring "Me too, me three" lovefest!

There's a few times when I might want to critique a model but then I think 'could I really do better?' and hold back so as not to put my foot in it, especially as the internet can be tricky to get humour/emotions across successfully.

Nick B)  

[Ian the Kiwi Herder]

My take:

If somebody puts a coda on their post, asking for any suggestions or crits, that's fine, I'll do so hopefully without being picky or coming-off all 'smarta*se'.

I won't give ANY suggestion or crit if none is asked for.

Simple as that.

Ian

[Excalibur]

I think there is a big differnce between a JMN & someone giving advice. If someone has built a decent kit but hasn't picked the exact right colour or hand painted the canopy frames a little out of the lines, well that doesn't bother me if I can see its well made & painted & looks like the subject.

As far as criticizing models goes, I think it should be constructive. Regarding the Dragons Den idea, that should be up to the person posting, if they feel their skill level (ego) can withstand it. I believe in encouraging people not simply bagging them. This however doesn't mean saying a model is brillant when you don't believe it is.

As someone who doesn't build "perfect" or "prize winning" kits himself (i will never enter a comp) I do appreciate seeing models that are built out of love or enthusiasm as opposed to some notion that every little rivet must be correct ideal. I do enjoy looking at a majority of the builds here, more than I like looking at the bland super detailed kits on other sites that don't look like teh "real' thing either becasue they are so clean & all the details shaded etc. I like seeing the individulism as opposed to every kit looking like it was built by the same person, because they are all so "perfect". That said I think that "WhatIfModeling" if its to be taken seriously should be about building quality models that regardless of how plausible or not the subject is, should be well built. Minimum if any seam lines, clean surfaces, well painted (hand or airbrush). The general basics, really.  

[cthulhu77]

A sticky situation.  Like people you are interested in, there is usually something of quality that you can find if you look hard enough at any model. The paint may be great, but the decals silvered, etc. So, comment nicely on the paint job, and mention the use of solvents/future for the decals.

 A "dragon's den" sort of thing would reduce this site to yet another hangout for the socially repressed, something that would do no good for the hobby, and certainly not make this website grow.

 It does not have to be a "love fest" at all, but being able to put out constructive criticism seems to be beyond some people, and it does tend to go downhill into a flame carnival after a while.

 My vote? Don't change anything. If you don't like it, go somewhere else, and see if it's any better there....but I doubt you will be happy with that either.

  I have had my ups and downs with certain members of this group, certainly, but there isn't one of you I wouldn't want to buy a beer for, and sit down for a banter. Let's keep the criticism to the pm's, and if you have a great idea of how someone could improve their modeling skills, let them know...it will show in their next model, and then we all can appreciate it .

                  Greg

[Eddie M.]

I consider anyone who puts up a pic of their A-OK in my book. It's all art to me. Even if the finished product is rough, it took time and brain power to do it. That is valuable to me. I think there should be a place to show your work and get critiqued, if you are so inclined. No getting upset with what you may not want to hear though.  

Better yet, set up the Dragon's Den as an extreme. Offer your work up and see if you can handle the onslaught of a Master Inspector's list of defects!  
  Eddie  

[bluntie]

Exellent points raised here,i'm all for helping others raise their skills as much as i am for others to help raise my skills, the couple of models i have posted here are the only models i have ever put on veiw via the magik electrick computer!  the main reason being that just about any other forum would have rendered comments like 'yes the mig/spit or whatever looks good but you do know they never operated that type' it would only take a few like that to start denting ones enthusiasim, some people have a strange type of fear associated with alternitive thought. i'll give a prime example , i took the Kikka i built to our club meeting and recived plenty of favorable comments and praise,a modeller who i greatly respect and admire went over it with a fine tooth comb and was able to give me some valuable tips and pointers,mind you this guy builds museum quality A/C and is a founding member of IPMS in this state,i was whole heartedly encouraged to keep 'wiffing',in his own words it was such a breath of fresh air to see someone thinking outside the square,..but...another bloke walked straight up and said no..no..no.the Nakajima Kikka was never operational...no..no..no..there was never any Japanese airbases in Australia..no..no..no..its all wrong,and the more i tried to explain the concept of alternitive history the less he was able to see the hours of work in scratch building cockpit and engines,the less he was able to see what is a fairly complicated paint job .etc.                                                                      
I think what i am trying to say here is that by definition we are a very open minded group of souls and perhaps are more likely to take constructive criticisim in the spirit it is intended,we are much less likely to get into the endless anal arguments about the 'right 'shade of rlm76,or the colour of mk1 spitfire oxygen bottles. if i have dodgy seam lines,or the thing is not quite square,or theres a big blast of overspray somewhere then its ok to tell me,many times i have put lots of hours into a kit ,held it up to the light,thought to my self 'wow thats much better than the last one' only to have a friend point out a glaring ,obvious flaw that for the life of me i was unable to see.....maybe an easy remedy would be to just type 'comments welcome' when posting pictures,that way the invitation is there.    
Thats just my thoughts anyway.....                                                                    
  Bluntie...oh by the way this is the only forum i choose to be a member of..

[Excalibur]

I love the forum exactly the way it is. Please don't change it!

I've only shown one model here (a delta winged Lightning F7) and, up close, it was a bit rough with intake lips that would have scaled out to about 300mm. But I felt 'safe' showing it on here whereas on other sites I would have been slaughtered.

http://snap25.photobox.co.uk/406387499c1e6...84b364fe98d.jpg

At the risk of sounding like a nice guy, I actually do like this build. Well built & painted. Looks like something that really existed.

[Radish]

By the way, if anyone slags my models I'll just give them a BIG KISS  

[cthulhu77]

By the way, if anyone slags my models I'll just give them a BIG KISS

Crikey, there goes half the members!  (over the kiss, not the models you nut)


  I really think the idea of a "flame area" is a bad idea...it only leads to the empowerment of people who can't handle a normal conversation, and leads to a lot of ill will.

[BlackOps]

By the way, if anyone slags my models I'll just give them a BIG KISS

Radish, ya gotta post pics before we can slag 'em!    

[Shasper]

By the way, if anyone slags my models I'll just give them a BIG KISS

Kiss me and I'll have yer balls  

Shas B)