Dilema

[cthulhu77]

If you want commentary, just ask for it. Other than that, I think the site is fine for posting images of work done.  If some of you out there consider yourselves to be sooooo much better than the rest of us, why don't you form your own site?  As the wise Sentinel Chicken posted, there are just too many different levels and ways of looking at things to start subscribing to some IPMS junkola.

[Joe C-P]

I find this site to be more interesting during the discussions of the background of the results of builds rather than commenting on the quality of the build. If you want advice on improving your modelling skills, ask and I shall humbly suggest, but I will not criticize the result.
When I build a what-if, it's not meant to be a highly-detailed, accurate-to-the-last-hull-plate representation. It's supposed to be an idea, executed as well as I can, but not like the models I build for museum display. I don't bother with photo-etch, too many decals, high detail, and I use these as experiments and practice for the demanding display kits.

JoeP

[Hobbes]

Nah, a poll wouldn't help. You want constructive criticism, ie if you point out a flaw, offer advice on how to correct/improve on it. Votes in a poll don't offer that.

If some of you out there consider yourselves to be sooooo much better than the rest of us, why don't you form your own site?

I think that's uncalled for. There's a big difference between offering helpful hints to improve a builder's models, and looking down on people with less skill/experience etc.

PMs are nice, but the advantage of offering your advice in a forum post is that others can learn from it as well. I certainly got some helpful tips that way.  

[Geoff_B]

Well if the general consensus is not to be critical then i think that perhaps praise should also be banned from the same post, you must have balance to be truely fair!

If all you want to do is praise to stroke ego's then do that also by PM, as it serves little other benefit to the forum or other modellers. That way you only devalue yourself and not the forum.

We're starting to sound like an on-line self help group by constantly re-enforcing and supporting each other and steering away from any negativity relating to models or supporting artwork

We are a Modelling Forum,  yes we are sensative about the uber critical JMN critics that prevail on the mainstream forums but still a modelling forum intended to discuss models and related subjects, being blatantly biased to the positive side no matter what serve very little value in the long run and devalues it when it is truely worthy.

Geoff
(See said it was a dilema)

[Eddie M.]

This thread is having an effect on folks right now, like it or not. I like this site for what it is. A fun place to see some cool stuff under construction and to show your work without worry about some one shooting you down. You should have seen what happened when one of JHM's projects got linked to another site around here. I didn't consider it too polite when they poo pooed his project from thought to execution. If I want that kind of scrutiny, I'll post there. I heard it said by someone here that this place is like an oasis. I agree. I hope it doesn't change too much.........
  Eddie  

[MerlinJones]

Interesting topic and one I have personal experience of, both good and bad, either on modelling Forums or in my line of work with Groups.

I like the Dragons Den idea...
Anyone entering a build for scrutiny knows that they'll receive considered and hopefully constructive criticism.
If you don't want this, then don't enter it.
Masochists will enjoy themselves.
Good Moderation will facilitate some measure of safety.
I'd also expect, besides good Moderation, that the assessors would be limited in number, as opposed to anyone and everyone can have a go at giving constructive criticism. This wouldn't work. As has already been pointed out, the giving of such feedback is a skill in its self.
So...do you want me to slag off the abysmal painting jobs, or the inordinately sloppy seams and glue-smeared canopies?
(To be honest, I don't believe that I'm a regular enough Poster in here to contribute to such a role, but you'll know who you know and trust amongst you).

You could just leave it to those who post their work in the main Forums to ask for feedback. If they don't ask, then we're in exactly the same situation as we're in now.

tbh...first time someone requested tissues on seeing my Loki, I was flattered...then I realised that tissues are always in demand...and the subsequent damp patch following my Jetstorm had less impact.
Being appreciated is a great feeling, but being told that I've improved in some way is better.

That said, there are some brilliant ideas on the Forum, seemingly let down, in my opinion, by lazy finishing...and don't tell me it's a lack of skill, it ain't. However, if the modeller is happy with his effort, c'set la vie.

We got a buzz when an initially novice modeller demonstrated an improvement in his skills...for example,hiding seams and using masking effectively.

I'd guess that most of us here are on what I call The Plateau...If we put effort in, we can hide seams, attach smear-free canopies and mask effectively...even produce a relatively streak-free paint job.
To develop beyond this, takes a lot of effort, practice, practice, skill and more practice and effort...and practice.

Most of those lacking in some skills probably know it already...when they see how The Dragons Den, for example, critiques a piece of my work, they'll suss out that it's not a dangerous thing to expose yourself to.

Word of Warning...from experiences on the Airfix Forums...

There are those who, because of inappropriate praise, believe themselves to be marvellous. They will ask for feedback ,expecting to be adored and will take it badly when criticised.

There will then be those modellers who will insist on 'rescuing' the poor, offended mite...and will turn on the nasty bullies insulting the victim!

This will happen, regardless of the sensitivity and tact employed.

This is where good moderation comes in and, for the Den, clearly sign-posted 'Rules'. These might at least stop so-called rescuers grinding their axes.


So...does this mean I can take the rip out of all those boringly similar TSR2's you guys insist on displaying?

Very Best Regards,
Bruce

[Eddie M.]

Well if the general consensus is not to be critical then i think that perhaps praise should also be banned from the same post, you must have balance to be truely fair!

But what if I like something that you don't ? See where that leads? If you want less compliments on projects, say so, you're an administrator. I bet by saying that, you've already stopped many. If some one here feels the need to offer advice about someone's project, come out and say it. I notice more wrong about my builds than anyone here. By the way, I get plenty of suggestions and advice, like,"You're gonna leave that there" or" Are you sure you want to use that color?"    

Critical advice offered kindly has helped me move forward. Some one with a "know it all" attitude gets no where.
  Eddie

[TsrJoe]

I can definately see where the moderators are coming from with this one... when i first joined the site there definately fewer members (its great to see how its blossomed) but the posts did seem more 'focussed' if thats the word to use, providing inspiration, discussing concepts, ideas, etc, sometimes even with 'real world' references to back them too! not saying that still isnt happening with the site, but before when i checked in once a day or so to one page of new posts, etc. im now faced with sometimes more than three pages worth of new topics, postings, general non modelling stuff and subjects covered in prev postings!
                 
i dont want to sound like a 'JMN' (a much maligned term im coming to believe) but there is definately a place for criticism here amonst all the praise as noted in the opening post, ill actually admit that iv found out quite a lot of useful snippets of information, tips etc. from those sometimes referred to by the term on 'other forums' (and yip i can see how i could be called one myself in relation to certain modelling subjects!)

my own modelling interests range right across the board from air and space, afv's, ships, scifi, and even palaentological subjects, with my research interests following a similar coverage too, spanning over three decades of modelmaking, so in some areas through experience, i do know what is 'right' and happily provide encouragement where due, but i do agree that praise for its own sake just takes up bandwidth and does nothing to improve the hobby or its enjoyment overall!

hoping none take the postings as being hypercritical or offputting, im guessing its just intended to make us all think before posting (again one of the other more research orientated sites has gone through a similar issue recently!)


best wishes and happy modelling (the true point of this forum!)

cheers, joe    

[Geoff_B]

Well if the general consensus is not to be critical then i think that perhaps praise should also be banned from the same post, you must have balance to be truely fair!

But what if I like something that you don't ? See where that leads? If you want less compliments on projects, say so, you're an administrator. I bet by saying that, you've already stopped many. If some one here feels the need to offer advice about someone's project, come out and say it. I notice more wrong about my builds than anyone here. By the way, I get plenty of suggestions and advice, like,"You're gonna leave that there" or" Are you sure you want to use that color?"    

Critical advice offered kindly has helped me move forward. Some one with a "know it all" attitude gets no where.
  Eddie

Eddie

Only postes that get deleted are when somebody gets out of hand in the more political threads, been overly abusive to somebody else that could be considered as libel or have  dropped a gaff by posting either theirs or somebody elses personal details on the forum which caould lead to identity theft.

The Admin side means vetting membership, starting new groups or closing them down when expired. Thats all.

Why on earth would you think that i delete praise posts, i merely pointed out that were starting to get imbalanced and it was noticaible in compariosn to other sections. I pointed it out as a growing trend that can be just as unhealthy as the over critcial efforts of the JMN.


Geoff

[Mossie]

There are those who, because of inappropriate praise, believe themselves to be marvellous. They will ask for feedback ,expecting to be adored and will take it badly when criticised.

There will then be those modellers who will insist on 'rescuing' the poor, offended mite...and will turn on the nasty bullies insulting the victim!

Trouble is Bruce, you forgot to mention the flip side too.  There are those who criticise only to boost their own egos, who delight in showing the problems with others models while taking criticism dificultly themselves.

There are those who will deliberately target younger & begginner modelers & put them off modelling rather than just offering advice.

There are those who will legitimately side with 'the poor, offended mite' when they have been unfairly criticised & will then get pounced on themselves.

There are some who believe that their opinions are worth more than others.

We keep talking about offering criticism, which as the term implies, often ends being negative.  We should be talking about offering advice, about people not being afraid to ask because they'll get a good, sincerely offered, well rounded reply rather than a slagging.  If someone asks 'what do you think of my model' theres got to be both sides of the coin; 'Okay, the paintwork could do with a fair bit of work but you've done a good job of the build'.

If all you want to do is praise to stroke ego's then do that also by PM, as it serves little other benefit to the forum or other modellers. That way you only devalue yourself and not the forum.

We're starting to sound like an on-line self help group by constantly re-enforcing and supporting each other and steering away from any negativity relating to models or supporting artwork

Yeah, but again Geoff, the opposite can be true too.  If people see it as a slag-fest others get in on the bandwagon & it puts off those wanting to offer good advice, the opposite of what happens now.  You said it's dilema, you're right.  If you start adding criticism for the sake of it, that's all you'll get.  Change the forum by all means, I'm not against that but change it too much & you'll get it populated by JMN's & wankers.

What you've got to realise is that in this thread you've asked for peoples opinions, & by them disagreeing with you they are offering advice/criticism.  You've responded by not accepting any of it!  Is that the example you want to set?

[Leigh]

Furthermore, all the advice and critiques in the world ain't gunna enable me to turn out models like Baz or Greg of Wolfik or Matrixone, because they all have one thing that I don't - talent

Right then, first off this is the kind of garbage that's been pissing me off lately funny I was going to start a thread on a similar vein but this is close enough.

First off we have to differentiate what it is we are critiquing? If it's a JMN accuracy issue then it really has no place on a what-if forum. If it's building skills then yeah we can all benefit from constructive criticism. I'm of the "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything" school, I'll be honest there are some models I've seen posted here that are a simple paint and decal whif and the paint job is crap and I'll be amazed at the compliments, which are really more for the idea than the model. Me I just say nothing. When I do compliment someones work I try to keep it directed at either the concept or the execution "great idea" rather than "great model".
But wot really chaps my hide is the "we're not worthy, where's my knitting needles school", anyone can build great models with some care and practice, I will concede the availability and cost of supplies can be prohibitive for some. There are things we can all do on here to improve our skills. When I post a model I'll always try to explain some new method I tried out that worked, or point out the flaws but not with "yeah I know it's flawed but......." but rather with "this is screwed up how do I not repeat it?"
When viewing other peoples models if there's something that intrigues or impresses me I'll ask how it was done and then apply that technique, often with a counterpoint to a different method for achieving the same result.
There are some amazing craftsmen here who simply build fantastic models and / or incredible ideas. We are all capable of these standards.
I build good models, I say this because you guys have voted on them, and so have my IPMS club and I've won awards. A couple of years ago I built so-so models but through asking the questions, inviting the criticism, trying the methods, being willing to change my methods (big one that), and practice I've improved. So bollocks to all this donkey kissing " I could never do something that good".

Dragons Den is fine by me, be it legitimate comments and not personal maliciousness, hell I do it every month when I display at IPMS meetings.



Oh and Nev that Wild Weasel Lightning is still one of my fave models on here, that's not arse kissing but my opinion.

[Geoff_B]

Simon

I merely pointed out in the initail post that we have become rather positively biased to the extent that some of it is becoming worthless, i did ask if constructive critisim had died off as its not the policy of the forum. As members appeared to be relucatant to be mention any form of constuctive advice for fear of being condemened as over critical i decided to ask.

There have been various discussion on the pros'and cons with various solutions being propossed and a fair number unwilling to see any form of change. I thus responded that only way to be fair if other comments not prasing the model  are relegated to PM's then to be fair and neutral messages of praise and congradulations should also be via PM. It was just offered as a possibility and a counter if beinf critical in any form is unacceptable

As to a slag fest that shouldn't happen either as that breaks the respect guidelines of the forum. Im not asking for am open season or character assigniation which is readily available elsewhere, just that nobody is offering advice these days when mistakes appear to be being repeated.

G
 

[Supertom]

Hey everybody,

What-If started off originally because of a slagfest on a modeling forum.  First it was the people who had issues with what-if models, then it was the whole "I'm a better modeler than you, lick my balls" attitude among other modelers.  So we just started our own site.  The original intent was to have a community of people who just wanted to have fun by building whatever they wanted to, especially if it was a what-if.  We never had people who slagged our members off or caused trouble (those who did were quickly drummed out if they didn't come to their senses after being asked).  

Now as far as criticism.  Yes, constructive criticism is fine - it's a way for us to learn.  I have to admit I'm as guilty as hell as far as offering that up - for me I have a tendency not to offer it unless asked specifically, and even then I tend to be reluctant unless asked privately (must be an Asian thing).  There's also the problem of how easy it is to get misunderstood - what someone typed up that was purely constructive criticism can be misunderstood as negative criticism, either due to (1) errors in syntax, or (2) selective listening.  Fortunately we have a lot more of the former.  I'd strongly encourge you to offer tips and pointers to our fellow modelers, and if there's ever a doubt that you might think it'd be misunderstood, ask the person if he'd/she'd mind a little constructive criticism, either as a reply on the forum or via PM.  Modelers, you can encourage responses by asking readers for feedback.  I'll do my part by offering more feedback (especially if you ask!) - I give you my word that I will not ask you to lick my balls

I think we're a fine community, probably the best in terms of solidarity.  If only our git of a webmaster would get off his arse and work on his CSS skills so he can make the site prettier and upload all that cool stuff the members are putting up on the forums oh erm wait that's me.  Okay I should find some time for it then...

[Eddie M.]

Well if the general consensus is not to be critical then i think that perhaps praise should also be banned from the same post, you must have balance to be truely fair!

But what if I like something that you don't ? See where that leads? If you want less compliments on projects, say so, you're an administrator. I bet by saying that, you've already stopped many. If some one here feels the need to offer advice about someone's project, come out and say it. I notice more wrong about my builds than anyone here. By the way, I get plenty of suggestions and advice, like,"You're gonna leave that there" or" Are you sure you want to use that color?"    

Critical advice offered kindly has helped me move forward. Some one with a "know it all" attitude gets no where.
  Eddie

Eddie

Only postes that get deleted are when somebody gets out of hand in the more political threads, been overly abusive to somebody else that could be considered as libel or have  dropped a gaff by posting either theirs or somebody elses personal details on the forum which caould lead to identity theft.

The Admin side means vetting membership, starting new groups or closing them down when expired. Thats all.

Why on earth would you think that i delete praise posts, i merely pointed out that were starting to get imbalanced and it was noticaible in compariosn to other sections. I pointed it out as a growing trend that can be just as unhealthy as the over critcial efforts of the JMN.


Geoff

I don't think you delete praise posts. I did not say that. I am not trying to aggravate anyone. I meant  that you have the power to suggest things around here and by voicing your concerned about types of post, indirectly some folks will not do it anymore. That's all.
   Eddie    

[cthulhu77]

Last year, there was a thread about what a great place this was to be able to access, because everyone was friendly, unlike many of the other sites...and newcomer's felt welcome right away.

 I don't understand why some of you want to turn it into another ipms site, where the so called "jmn's" get to rag on everybody about anything.  Agreed, sometimes it gets a little bit overdone with the compliments, but not posting anything = dead site, no ?  I don't think my earlier comment was "uncalled for" at all...this superior attitude crap really pisses me off.