Dilema

[Sentinel Chicken]

I haven't finished a damn model in what now, five years? Got to have been the world's worst case of half-assed syndrome in all of the State of Texas.

I found this site by accident and marvelled at how UNLIKE most scale modelers I knew everyone here was. Most of my work now is illustrative with my profile art which I enjoy sharing here as well as on my own forum at Airlinebuzz.com because if it inspires someone to try to make it in plastic, then I'm happy for them (becuase my half-assed syndrome won't let me do it....dammit...the doctors don't know squat on how to fix it, too.........)

I always thought scale modelers as a rule were nitpicky. But you know, it did push me to improve my skills over the years and the suggestions of some also helped me with my profiles, too. What's the saying, you're always a student for life? Whether its in a given profession, or a trade, a hobby, or whatever, there's always something more to learn and while that may not be from nitpicking, sometimes it's just seeing how someone's build came together and how they did it that the learning can take place IN ADDITION to constructive criticism.

I've part of a team that's been running Airlinebuzz.com for nearly six years now and we've always been devoted to collectors of diecast aircraft models, primarily civilian jetliners, but that's been broadening in scope. I've discovered over the years that one collector's prized model is another collector's turkey. I've got over 1000 of the damn little toys in my display cases (1/400 scale, 1/200 scale, a few 1/144s and 1/72 diecasts in addition to my 1/144 scale kits) and there are some I can't for the life of me figure out why I bought. And some I'll expect to be buried with when I become worms' food.

My point? I forgot. I forgot my pills this morning.

Oh, what I'm getting at is that after six years I found that it wasn't collecting that was important to me, but it was the community that had grown and developed there. Some of us meet up outside the forums, and I've definitely enjoyed the comaraderie of a diverse group of folks who all have an enthusiasm for aviation.

What I've seen here on this fine forum is the same thing. All y'all hail from diverse backgrounds and diverse interests yet everyday intermingle here in a free exchange of ideas. The VERY fact you all can have this discussion means the forum community means something to you- and it means something different to each of you- to learn, to entertain, to get support, or just to hang out...virtually......but you get the idea.

I've been with this community now a year or so, I think? If what I've seen here in the past year is anything, then this very discussion will be part of the evolution of this forum and its unique atmosphere.

I suspect the simplest approach would be for someone to simply put after they post pics "Opinions and critiques welcome". You open that door, you be prepared to sit in the hot seat. If you're not ready, then fine. We're all at different skill levels and sometimes too many opinions can make it hard to find your own path to improvement. Then those pics should just get affirmative comments in keeping with the spirit of the forum. We should'nt think any less of a builder because they don't want any critiques because they might have their own reasons we ought to respect.

I'll stop blabbering now. My beer is getting warm.  

[Shasper]

I think that sizes it all up right there.

Shas B)

[anthonyp]

I'd strongly encourge you to offer tips and pointers to our fellow modelers, and if there's ever a doubt that you might think it'd be misunderstood, ask the person if he'd/she'd mind a little constructive criticism, either as a reply on the forum or via PM.

But you see, unsolicited advice and criticisms are where the problem lies.  

I, like many others, know my faults, don't really care, and post a finished model, errors and all, just to share what my idea is.  More often than not, I'll even list what errors the build has, just to show I'm well aware my models aren't perfect.

But at the same time, I don't want some kid offering unsolicited advice because he thinks I should spend more time on painting my canopies.  If I post a finished model, and explain my issues with my finished build, I expect comments and maybe expansion on the idea behind the build, not the execution.

You want the God's honest truth?  I don't want to get better.  My hands shake so much when I'm painting (physical manifestation of stress, or so my doctor tells me), I know I can't get better, and if I tried, I know it'd just cause me more frustration.  And people telling me I should do this or that with the model when I didn't ask for it and not commenting on the idea I wanted to share, would just turn me off to this place, and I'd be left with myself again to keep my interest in the hobby going.  

Comment on my ideas all you want, as that's my purpose here, not to improve my modeling skills.  I'm on the slow downward slope of my model building days.  I was a lot better when I was in High School 14 years ago (I actually used my airbrush back then), and I know I'll never get back to the skill level I was at.  Now, I do this to remember the joys of putting a kit together the way I did back then, and however I want to put it together, flaws and all.

But these are my personal thoughts.  We all have different reasons for being here, and not all of them are to improve modeling skills.

Like I said, either create a new forum for it, or as others have suggested, just ask for actual constructive criticism when posting a build.

[Brian da Basher]

Anthony, you've hit the nail on the head! I know there are folks that seek to build to IPMS Contest Winning Quality. That's fine. I'm not one of them. Maybe I could pull something like that off, but to put in that kind of effort would sap all the fun out of it for me and make the hobby like a job. I build simply to see my ideas take shape in plastic. I'll be the first to admit none of my builds would pass an IPMS judge's scrutiny (thanks for the insight into that, Leigh!). I'm well aware of my own shortcomings as a modeller and can live with them. If others are seeking hints and tips to improve, that's great and they should feel free to ask. I seek only to share my ideas and maybe inspire others.

Often times on other forums, jerks use the ruse of "constructive criticism" to just slag on builds as a way of compensating for their own deep-seated issues. I fear seeing that happen here and turning our beloved Whiff-World into something like we see infested by JMNs and critics who never build anything elsewhere on the 'net.

Brian da Basher

[John Howling Mouse]

Funny this has come up.  Driving home tonight from work, I was thinking about this site and all you people who make it what it is.  In a hobby (and a world) filled with so much negativity and scrutiny, this site IS an oasis of positive vibes.  I was thinking about how rare this is and wondering how long it would last.

A number of bright, intuitive folks here seem to have come up with essentially the same, common sense idea: leave it up to the individual posting his/her work/conceptualization to invite constructive criticism (or not).  Once that option is requested, just be aware that at least some of the comments that come back will undoubtedly change the flavor of this site to some degree---sometimes for the better; sometimes not.

As for praise to become limited in any way, degree, shape or form, you may as well go a step further and start limiting sheer creativity and enthusiasm itself.  I'd have to be way more insecure than I already am (would that be possible?!) to start worrying about how genuinely passionate and happy I am about seeing the work of others.  My stuff's on the bench in front of me all the time.  Nice, maybe, but my work is certainly not new to me.  It is YOUR work that excites me.

Not long after I joined this friendly, positive and encouraging site, I started to realize I wasn't really building for me anymore.  I was building for YOU.  My wife makes fun of it but there are many of us who are not going to attend a lot of modelling venues for various reasons.  You have become our audience and we have become yours.

If anyone was to ask me to be less excited for seeing your work or for sharing mine with you, I'd simply go start my own website, now that this one (as it was) has shown me the value of positive encouragement.

There are plenty of sites with extremely talented (polite and otherwise) modellers where you can get all the advice and criticism you'd ever want (and more) but this is the only one I've ever encountered that spurs people on to greater and greater attempts to get their vision across to people whose opinions and enthusiasm they already cherish.

[BlackOps]

I understand where Geoff is coming from and much to my dismay I am one of the worst culprits for the "Atta boy" posts. I have wondered if anyone who puts in hours of hard work feels gyped when someone who appears to have put in less work still gets glowing comments heaped upon them.

Well here is the deal, If I post it, I mean it. I really do believe just because the skill level is lower doesn't mean the effort that went into it is less...If we had a math contest you could see how utterly foolish I would look regardless of how hard I try...trust me I could put in just as much effort and still not "get it". Now I'm not here to defend those of us with a lazy streak, I do appreciate what Leigh said, I know most of the time we belittle ourselves but there is indeed the ability for each and every one of us to improve should we desire to do so.

I think at this point we have exhausted most of the "Constructive" avenues this thread can take, I don't see any harm in a "Self Improvement" forum, (sounds much better than Dragons Den or some such Not trying to be PC here, I'm actually annoyed at how "SAFE" society has become but common courtesy and a fun place to hang out shouldn't be too much to ask for.  Heck if this was a beer commercial this is the part where I would spout "I love you guys"  

[Eddie M.]

Very well said JHM!
  Eddie  
   

[Shasper]

I have wondered if anyone who puts in hours of hard work feels gyped when someone who appears to have put in less work still gets glowing comments heaped upon them.

I can say that I've shared in this sentiment on a number of occasions, both on and off line, mostly other than here.

Now where's Rad? Petie's hungery and I've run out of Tots  


Shas B)

[Sentinel Chicken]

Well, let's see, I haven't finished a model in five years.

You guys are more productive than me.

Therefore you all suck.

And all your models suck.

I'd tell you to lick my balls, but I haven't seen those since saying "I DO".......

[Maverick]

I've had some thoughts regarding all of this and two things come to mind.

Firstly, I was asked to be a judge at a local town's annual show for a scale model competition.  Naturally there weren't a huge number of entries (it was a junior comp) but those that did had varying degrees of talent.  The winner had built an Accurate Miniatures Il-2 to almost IPMS perfection, we're talking serious weathering, smoke, panel lines, winter white wash, the works.  One glaring defect however was the placement of red stars on the upper wing surfaces, something the Soviets didn't do because it spoilt the effects of the camouflage.  I asked the young bloke about this and his reply was simple, "yeah i know, but you couldn't see them when it's sitting on the table".  Now this kid has serious talent, and since it was about three years plus ago, I wouldn't be surprised if he's become an accomplished modeller.  What right really, beyond my position did I have to lambast him over something that he honestly admitted to.  I could have and possibly destroyed his interest in competing but I didn't and he was the eventual winner.

Secondly, if there was a 'critique's corner' or whatever, one could expect it to be the domain of the JMNs that lurk amongst us.  But how would somebody like Rafael who builds primarily with cardboard be able to showcase his obvious talent when faced with styrene and resin 'perfection'.  Realistically, if the section was to be run as it might be suggested, he'd be put off completely after his first show.  I surfed a website with comp images just recently and was bored into oblivion after about the 23rd Mustang, 109 or other such beast, these were amazingly built but had the interest equivalent of watching cow bleeps dry in the sun.

JHM and others have put it very eloquently.  We are, mostly, like minded people who have shied away from the mainstream because of rivet-counters and the like and found a camaraderie that few forums of this type genuinley have.  I've made some brilliant friends being here, I've been encouraged into Profiling, especially since my own modelling kit is in storage and it has given me outlet and inspiration for the outlandish ideas within the fetid recesses of my mind.

Do we seriously want a forum where someone will eventually say 'You know, that TSR.2 has the wrong serial, they were to be allocated XXXXX instead of YYYYYY'.  Any newbie will take one look at something like that and say nope, just another bunch of nitpickers.   And this is hypothetical for Pete's sake!  How can the guys put a Vampire flown aircraft or a biplane F-15 in?  Where's the benchmark for that?  It simply doesn't exist.  Until someone decides we need rules, once that happens, 'what if' becomes 'because I said so' and I can guarantee a fall in membership (mine included).

So what if the panel line is crooked, so what if the plane has a matt finish instead of gloss.  Most are interested in the idea as anthonyp said, not the actual kit sitting on the bench.  I know my profiles don't hold a candle to those of Gekko and SC but I still am happy to share to give my view on 'what if'.  This is the only forum I belong to, it is the only club of any type I have ever belonged to and it is the only place that given time and a camera I would be happy to show my own work.  That in itself to me speaks volumes.

So what if we backslap each other into oblivion?  Even a newbie will realise that 'what if' is a subject that the mainstream will happily poo-poo on every time and will consider entry into those hallowed w@nkfests very carefully.

I know I've most probably rambled again, I know I'll get bits of it deleted, but it's the thought that counts, not the execution.

Regards,

John Lacey (Average Modeller, Poor Profiler, 110% What Iffer)

[Excalibur]

Hmmmm, Ok so how many of us are really worried if their kit has some dodgy seam lines or doesn't have painted leading edges or correct serial numbers etc.. even if it is a NON what if build? Maybe we all build for enjoyment & this is a site where kits of all quality can be displayed. I for one can see the flaws in my builds and aren't too concerned either. Just like some play sport for fun, knowing they will never be good enough for the olympics etc.. They play for fun. I'm only new here but I like the idea that non perfect models can be displayed.

I brought up the topic of building for fun rather than perfection on  another forum & was shot to shreds... I wouldn't want to this site to change.

How many people don't bother modeling not due to a lack of interest but because they feel unless they build these prize winning kits they will be torn to pieces? In the end its not good for our hobby. The more people building means (hopefully) a greater variety of subjects & better kits.

BTW I don't get people who purposely sand off all the details on kits & then rescribe them... Its all personal taste...  

[ysi_maniac]

If anyone was to ask me to be less excited for seeing your work or for sharing mine with you, I'd simply go start my own website, now that this one (as it was) has shown me the value of positive encouragement.

Hi, JHM:

Your post is just RIGHT.

If this site changes "DRAMATCALLY" I will switch to yours.

Please, do not change what is almost perfect. You can do it perfect   And you can ruin it completely.

Thanks,
Carlos.

[Radish]

Well babies, I've mostly stayed away from this discussion, and have just caught up again.

Positive comments, even the just regular "Very nice" might seem like a platitude to many, but to the guy who models, it's Manna From Heaven.
We thrive on praise.
We disintigrate if we're put down.

Criticism's OK, but by PM please.
I build models for myself, not for comp and am happy with what I do.
If I went overboard and tried to reach a comp standard, then I'd get frustrated.
I build for myself and fun, pleasure, contentment, and to eradicate my stash (if possible) before I cross The Bridge of Swords to another place.

I once went to a show where I exhibited a twin-barrelled T-72, and some numpty came round and told me what was wrong. I smiled sweetly. When I saw his stuff, he invited me to comment on his fabulous stuff, but I just smiled and said, "I wouldn't be so rude".

Most people look at my models and smile.
I'm happy with that.
Some people read my texts and laugh and bring their friends to read them too. I', happy then as well.

This site is positive.
We might agree, disagree, but we're always made welcome.
That's how it should be.
It's ALIVE, not a death-producing stultifying inducement to paranoia.
belong to other forums, but rarely post there because they're far too serious, far too focussed and miss the point of enjoyment.
I once looked at one of the first What if? SIG displays at Donnington, and saw an absolutely TERRIBLE Italeri 1/72nd B-58 Hustler, covered in glue, awful paintwork, misalligned bits, but a brilliant concept of the engines grouped around the tail. The guy was an enthusiast, he had a great sense of humour and had fun. His model, by competition standards, would have been locked in a darkened room, but within the Whatif? community, it was prized for its ideas and humour.

WE MUST NEVER LOSE THAT.

All of us build to different standards. Some want to be challenged, others are happy.
Let's all be happy and gain our tips and expertise elsewhere if need be.
Let's appreciate the ideas, humour, comraderie and and this great Forum.

Now then, if you're passing I'll give you all a BIG KISS  

[Aircav]

I've never heard "Dragons Den" before but it sound negative from the start, I do know that over on Missing-Lynx which I visit a lot they have a discussion group section and one of those is "constructive discussions" which seems to work http://www.network54.com/Forum/110741/
Some modellers like to improve on there last work some don't, I know I do and I also like learning.

[Mossie]

Simon

I merely pointed out in the initail post that we have become rather positively biased to the extent that some of it is becoming worthless, i did ask if constructive critisim had died off as its not the policy of the forum. As members appeared to be relucatant to be mention any form of constuctive advice for fear of being condemened as over critical i decided to ask.

There have been various discussion on the pros'and cons with various solutions being propossed and a fair number unwilling to see any form of change. I thus responded that only way to be fair if other comments not prasing the model  are relegated to PM's then to be fair and neutral messages of praise and congradulations should also be via PM. It was just offered as a possibility and a counter if beinf critical in any form is unacceptable

As to a slag fest that shouldn't happen either as that breaks the respect guidelines of the forum. Im not asking for am open season or character assigniation which is readily available elsewhere, just that nobody is offering advice these days when mistakes appear to be being repeated.

G

Geoff, theres a fair number of people who have said that they are willing to see a change too, just so long as it doesn't change the nature of the forum to much.  There are plenty of us who want to improve, myself included (& some who don't, nothing wrong with that if your happy where you're at).  It's just if you open a critical forum, you'll get just that, criticism.  What I suggest is that it should be an advice column.  This may seem like spiltting hairs, but there is a distinct difference.  Rather than just pointing out a 'problem', you should suggest a soloution too.  That way I think we can keep the balance & keep the nature of the forum largely unchanged.

At Christmas, I saw my nephew, who I would love to get into modelling as I think it's his kind of thing (although I'm finding it difficult, I don't see him much, his parents are divorced, father lives away etc.).  He's a bright, creative eleven year old & when I showed him this forum his eyes lit up, he realised there was a place where his imagination could run riot & be appreciated.  I bought him an Airfix MiG 15, far from the best kit but fine for a beginner.  Imagine he knocked that up to look like it was from Digimon, or whatever he's into at the moment, paint too thick, canopy frosted from poly, glue marks, no filler.  Then he posted on a forum where people tend to be very critical.  Who's to know he's eleven on a forum?  Theres those who would have a go anyway.  Then say he posted it on here.  Which is he more likely to walk away from wanting to have a second go?  I'm thirty, getting back into the hobby from when I was younger & I was almost put off by the bitchiness on some other forums.  I found a sanctury here, where people where willing to embrace all ideas.

I'm not saying you want to turn this forum it into a JMN heaven Geoff, but be careful about how you go about it because if your not careful, it'll end up just like that.