Dilema

[nev]

*snip*  anyone can build great models with some care and practice  *snip*

Sorry mate, but that is were we disagree.  Modeling is a skill, and like all skills, some are born better at it than others.  Yes, all of us can improve our skills - and I know I have since I came back into the hobby, but not all of us can reach the same level.

As you quite rightly pointed out, you yourself have made tremendous strides since coming back into the hobby, visible to all of us who have seen your work improve over the years, but your advances in skills, knowledge, tools and equipment are merely compliments to your underlying and inherent talent, imagination and creativity.  

Same goes for the likes of Barry and Greg, their inherent artistic ability, courage to try something new, and creativity leads them to being amongst the finest modelers on this forum, and their is no question in my mind that Greg is most suited in every way to being a proffesional artist.  Barry could probly set up his own cottage industry model company should he wish.  Or make a living selling his Star Wars paintings on eBay.

Me on the other hand?  Listen, I could spend a lifetime being coached by Alex Ferguson, wear the latest Addidas Predators, drink Lucazade Sport, but I will never be a proffesional footballer.

Oh and Nev that Wild Weasel Lightning is still one of my fave models on here, that's not arse kissing but my opinion.

And that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, but you still left me in your modeling slipstream several years ago

[Geoff_B]

Erm Simon

Others have propossed the Critics forum or Dragons den, i merely pointed out that the model post sections was getting a little too much self love posts rather than honest feedback.

As standard we avoid the JMN style of uber critisim, but that should not prevent the ability to discuse the concept, method or technique. the reasoning behind the builds is quite entertaining and often others would join in and help develop the concept with tid bits of shared  knowledge. The same used to go for the building as well as with kit bashing different approaches can help result in a much more enjoyable build.

Its not a change in policy i'm propossing , just reminding members than they can still offer feedback on builds be it praise or maybe advice , but praising for praises sakes offers little and reinforces bad habits.

If you don't want your build to be discussed you simply set the no reply option whilst creating the post, the images are there to be seen but without the feedback be it good or bad.

As for newbies the members tend to welcome and encourage them when they first join and get involved. But you can't expect the same glowing feedback 12 months down the line as they would probably have picked up on various hints & tips by then.

On the point of your nephew i'm not sure how appropriate the forum actually is or is safe for younger modellers. Some regulars assume that its an adult forum and behave and act accordingly, often whilst drunk. Also we have no controls of the PM and email functions  nor have full details of who our members are so there is little we can do if somebody more sinister lurks the forum.

G

[nev]

So to summarise the discussion so far.

1) Many agree that heaping compliments on everyones kits regardless of quality is counter-productive.  Others agree that any form of praise is good, and encouragement should be encouraged, as it were.

2)  Some would like to see a specialised "critique" forum, others think it will negatively impact on the friendly and welcoming culture of the website.


However, the starting point of all this is the heaping of praise on everyone and everything - something some believe in, and others don't.

So here's my suggestion.  We've talked a lot about constructive criticism, how about a culture of constructive praise?

So instead of a page of " " 's and "brilliants", one points out what it is about a model that we like "I really like the weathering", "thats an original concept" etc etc.  Some forums I go on have a rule whereby one-word or smiley only posts are automatically deleted.  I don't want to suggest something so draconian, but if we can encourage more articulate, constructive praise, I think that would be a good thing.

[Shasper]

Nev nailed it.

Shas B)

[Sentinel Chicken]

I once belonged to an aviation forum where they discouraged one word posts as the mods wanted exactly what Nev is describing.

They also didn't have any smilies, either, but that's a matter of personal taste.

[BlackOps]

So instead of a page of " " 's and "brilliants", one points out what it is about a model that we like "I really like the weathering", "thats an original concept" etc etc.  Some forums I go on have a rule wereby one-word or smiley only posts are automatically deleted.  I don't want to suggest something so draconian, but if we can encourage more articulate, constructive praise, I think that would be a good thing.

I agree with Nev also, descriptive praise would be better. I try to do this but sometimes if I'm on limited time I tend to do the "great job" instead of elaborating. I will make an effort to correct that.

[Mossie]

I'm with Nev too.  What I guess I was trying to say is that if you need some kind of structure otherwise things will start to get out of hand.  I was afraid that saying 'okay go ahead & criticise each others work' would lead to a free for all.  It may seem paranoid, but it comes from experience.

Geoff, I may have gone a bit overboard, but I did so because it's something I feel strongly about.  I've been ripped apart by the JMN's of the world (I mean outside of modelling) & seen it happen to people I respect & admire when I didn't have the force of personality to prevent it.  Now, if I see these type of people getting in I have to say something, and I tend to fight my corner a bit too strongly.  I understand that this is not what you were proposing, I just wanted you to realise that it could get out of hand if it was allowed to breed too much.  I'm all for offering 'constructive praise' as Nev calls it!

Oh, & don't worry about my nephew, when he's been on here it's only on parts that I've selected for him!  I was really talking about when he was a bit older.

[NARSES2]

I do think Nev has got it    

[Geoff_B]

Hi Simon

No problem, the whole site was originally founded to get away from the uber negative nit picking JMN's. I was just noting that were were drifting way to far in the opposite direction .

The concern about your nephew is actually aimed at all members of the forum, I hope all think first before allowing children to openly use this site as some of the topics can be of a more mature nature and also as a warning to the rest of our members that minors do view and use this site so please consider when ever you enter a post if its really suitable to be seen by all !

G

[Tophe]

This topic, belately discovered, hurts me deep...

I am not a good modeller, I know it, I will never show a model of mine in an IPMS public show, feeling not proud at all towards my built. I had stopped modellism when I was younger, disgusted by the elitist state of mind, criticising (systematically) instead of appreciating (even partly). I experienced spending years to improve a single model, never finishing it, and this was so boring, joyless, no need for such a hobby as far as I was concerned... I had turned away to computer vectorial drawings. Then I found this site, loved many ideas (no matter how they were built/illustrated), and discussed with folks, presenting our ideas in drawings. Then many ones suggested that I try modellism again, and I have, shy, with very imperfect results. The acceptance and even cheers I received (thanks Brian and others...) made me feel happy, simply, and I loved this forum as it was. Once, a newcomer (now a friend) said one model of mine was very ugly and I considered stopping modellism again, forever, but fellow friends answered this forum was not for critics, and I felt better, like supported.

Feel free to destroy this state of mind, I would simply regret it, reminding the joyful old years... I feel betrayed, like cheated, the words I heard were "try a little, even shyly" not "try and you will have to improve again and again, forever, until reaching the skills of the very best ones, if ever". I will not, and if I had known this was a requirement, I would not have gone back to plastic.

As I see the landscape, there are :
1/ perfect modellers, proud to show
2/ good modellers, hoping to become perfect
3/ young modellers hoping to become good
4/ bad modellers, shy, hesitating between going on or stopping modellism
For the realist modellers that you call JMNs, there is nothing to get from 4, just bad, while for what-ifers, it could be different and it was : there are funny/original ideas to appreciate maybe, even if badly turned plastic, or not yet turned plastic. This topic is focusing on 2 & 3 (road to perfection), rejecting 4 it seems...

You are free to decide the area you want, neglecting some ones, they would simply be lost for modellism. As far as I am concerned I would turn to 3D computer virtual models, moving all my links/collections of drawings elsewhere.
Should I say, sadly: "Farewell, I loved you much"...?

[nev]

Tophe

1)  You're not as bad a modeller as you think you are

2)  Your models (which I am most happy to see you doing again) are outside the usual boundaries of what we model.  Colour schemes and markings are of no intrest to you.  You are interested in concepts, shapes.  You have an almost child-like love of your subjects - and I mean that in the nicest possible way.

[Rafael]

"Farewell, I loved you much"...?

I DON'T WANT TO HEAR THAT LAST SENTENCE, SPECIALLY FROM TOPHE.

Rafa.
(The object of more good will here than in his own country)

[Brian da Basher]

Yes indeed Rafa! Nor do I want to hear it either! Tophe, Whiff-World would be ever so much poorer for your absence! I hope you will stay with us. Your fantastic ideas have been no end of delight and inspiration to us here!

I am absolutely puzzled why this issue was begun in the first place. As anyone can see, it has caused no end of trouble and has only served to upset some very fine individuals. I feel it is time for us to go back to why we love this place so very much. It is a refuge from those who only seek to limit ingenuity.

I feel so very sad. Tophe, please do not say good-bye!

Brian da Basher

[cthulhu77]

One of the issues that has been addressed in this thread is that the site is not just about building styrene models. It is about new ideas, warping the reality, and seeing what comes of it.

  I don't care if a member does all graphic w/f's, or builds stunning models, or builds crappy models that have a great idea behind them.  It is the "hey, what if they..." that grabs my attention.

  There are other modeling forums for those seeking perfection...I would rather have the great new concepts, thanks.

              Greg

[Martin H]

Ok ive kept out of this so far.


For feck sake u lot! wake up will ya!

Once more we find some of our number winging and wining cause an admin has "dared" to make a few observations.
And bare in mind, with out them this place doesnt happen. And they all run this place in their spare time because they want to do it. And dont deserve the poo-poo that is some times thrown at them by the members.

1. No one makes any constructive comments about posible alternative meathods that might improve a build posted up, cause they run the risk of the wining liberals on here flameing them as JMN's for doing so.

2. theres way to many OTT comments of praise ref builds posted up.  yeap not all of us are world class competion builders, im certainly not. but i couldnt care less. Praise is good, dont get me wrong. But i can tell you now, the Royal Navy spad i posted up last night, isnt a fantastic build, and Geoff (B & P), rad, IHG, Dork chris and a few others were free to make any comments with out fear of any negative reaction from me to my face when it was on the display table at the Bolton show. Pointing out that a model could be better compared to a previous build of yours isnt being a JMN. I prefere peoiple to be honest with me, if its crap...by all means tell me. If you know a meathod that may help improve the next build, feel free to tell me. I may not use said advice but i wont hold against the person who offered it.
Advice either made in public on the forum or via the PM system is always helpfull. Some thing along the lines of "Nice build, but have u thought about doing (add idea here) next time, it might help add that little bit extra to the next build, Pm me if i want to have a go at it, ill tell u how i do it ....." ect ect ect. Now that cant be offencive can it? I know there have been a few attempts (via the PM system) at this sort of help from some of the more experianced modlers on here to stear the youngsters towards improveing their game....its called coaching, not being a JMN. Some of the old guard on here, have been building for decades, and are a font of information on how to do things, its about time we let these guys (if they want to do so) to pass on what they know to the next generation with fear of being flamed for doing so.

The idea behind places like this is to provide a way of swapping ideas, meathods, hints & tips ect...but we appear to have become nothing more than a place to kill a few hours chewing the cud. The flow of finished builds regardless of quality has slowed right down to a trickle, and always from the same few faces. And most of the so called old guard hardly take part in the forujm at all these days, because its not the place they joined way back...now change is good if it has a valid reason or aim, the what if model world has changed beyond recognition of what it was when i first joined the SIG in 1995. We were once "those nutters in the corner" were now taken quite seriously at a national and local level here in the UK, and it appears to be spreading, with leigh bagging space for a display at the US nationals. (and on that note, leighes put his neck on the block and got the space, now those of you over in the states who can get to the show, bloody well support him and put stuff on the table).  You never know were it may lead, posibly a what if? sig within IPMS (USA). now thats what i would call change for the better.

the above may appear disjointed, but then again im only a semi skilled factory worker who happens to be Dyslexic. with a fairly basic education. Im not like some of those on here, college/uni educated but i know this site well, and have been hanging around for a number of years now. I dont like seeing this back biting and poo-poo throwing that happens when some one just happens to comment about the way things appear (to them) to be going.

So stop threatning to quit and for once grow up and behave like adults (unless u r a kid of course)