Dilema

[Eddie M.]

One of the issues that has been addressed in this thread is that the site is not just about building styrene models. It is about new ideas, warping the reality, and seeing what comes of it.

  I don't care if a member does all graphic w/f's, or builds stunning models, or builds crappy models that have a great idea behind them.  It is the "hey, what if they..." that grabs my attention.

  There are other modeling forums for those seeking perfection...I would rather have the great new concepts, thanks.

              Greg

I've been doing a lot of thinking about this one and I must say that I truely enjoy the diversity of talent here and hope that this place continues to be beacon to those who want to share unique ideas. From the guys who are just starting out to the old salts, I steal ideas.....er I get inspiration from all of you. No offense to the professional modelers out there, but as much as I enjoy museum quality models, I look forward to seeing the works of the minds here. To be honest, I don't fit in some of the sites that pride themselves in spot on replications of their subjects. I saw a guy who was looking for the rivet patterns and standards for a certain aircraft recently. I enjoy that kind of attention to detail for those who are willing to go the distance. I've got no beef with those folks, I'm just not one of them. I can put out a decent real life subject, but it will not look exactly like the real deal. I have also noticed in the workbench section that some of the comments have become more descriptive in nature, so IMHO, a postive change is starting to take shape. With any creative group of people, there's going to be disagreements. What we do with the outcome is the key. Adapt and overcome, or as it was said in TopGun," Turn and Burn!"  

As coincidence would have it, I was listening to RUSH/ Moving Pictures and more specifically a song called Vital Signs. It has a verse that goes like this;

Everybody got mixed feelings
About the function and form
Everybody got to deviate
From the norm


Y'all have a nice day!  
  Eddie  

[Eddie M.]

The flow of finished builds regardless of quality has slowed right down to a trickle, and always from the same few faces. And most of the so called old guard hardly take part in the forujm at all these days, because its not the place they joined way back

That is a profound statement. Do know how that sounds? Would you care to elaborate on this because, in my mind it says one thing......The "Old Guard" doesn't care for the new kids being on their playground and doesn't care for the manner in which they play. I hope that's not what you're saying....

[Mossie]

You are free to decide the area you want, neglecting some ones, they would simply be lost for modellism. As far as I am concerned I would turn to 3D computer virtual models, moving all my links/collections of drawings elsewhere.
Should I say, sadly: "Farewell, I loved you much"...?

Tophe, please stay!  You bring a lot to this forum, the wonderful ideas that you have have inspired several of us to try some really striking & unusual models.  I would love to see more of your ideas in plastic, some of your zwillings & assymetric aircraft would make models that would really make people stop & look twice.

This might cheer you up , Fantastic Plastic are releasing a 1/144 model of a Northrop assymetric atomic powered bomber design:
http://www.fantastic-plastic.com/NorthropN...taloguePage.htm

Don't go Tophe, this forum would be a much poorer place without your enthusiasm & creative skills!

[Martin H]

Martin H. :Wow. I totally and completely disagree with you .

that i Belive is your right.

[Supertom]

Alright, that's it, I've had enough.  This is exactly the kind of crap that went on that led to people getting disgruntled with the hobby.  If you want to keep pushing each other's buttons, do it privately.

In conclusion:

1) Some people build museum-quality models, and others don't.  So what?  I bet the latter group has a lot more fun putting them together.  If anything they're able to bring ideas to fruition at a faster rate.  More power to them.

2) If you're in the latter group, and don't care to get any hints because you're more interested in showing your ideas than building museum pieces, just say so.

3) Otherwise we'll offer up tips and ideas every now and then because it's a learning cycle, and we'd like to share our experiences.

4) That the "old guard" doesn't care for newbies on the playground is poo-poo (with an english accent).  If that was the case I'd be drumming every single one of you out right now.

5) Looks like Tophe's leaving.  You happy now?

Topic closed.  

[Supertom]

Okay, after a discussion with Baz, I've realized that I seriously overreacted.  This is gonna reopen, and let's all try to figure out how to deal with this.  In a mature and diplomatic manner, of course.  I apologize for the axe-swinging, let's hope we can restart this and come out wiser.  

[John Howling Mouse]

I think the open discussion about Geoff's initial suggestion says a great deal about the high-quality folks at this site.  So does the concerns expressed.  Please, let's not shut anyone's opinions out.  Looking forward to mutual respect for all as we continue to discuss this worthwhile topic.

Some people are willing to openly invite a little more scrutiny about their builds.  Nothing wrong with that, provided it is an optional, personal preference stated by the artist him/herself.  Who am I to limit your hobby's path?

You moderator folks (whom I should credit more often) might find your workload significantly increased as scrutinizing the scrutinizers could become a full-time job in order to ensure the site remains civil and constructive.

As for this idea of overpraising (if there is such a thing), unless the target of my praise him/herself so wishes it, I will not accept anyone's attempts to limit the degree of encouragement or the method of delivery I choose to give anyone.  If I send you one of my "CARE" packages or a kit in the mail because you've impressed me or I just want to aid a fledgling builder, it is because it selfishly makes ME feel good.  Nothing altruistic about it.  If I want to comment with smilies or paragraphs or pictures of knitting needles and such, that's my call----UNLESS the artist specifically states they do not seek any praise or encouragement (believe the condition is called "anhedonia"?).

My father used to say something about "it takes a very small man to criticize, a big man to compliment, but an even bigger man to accept a compliment."

As for concerns over bandwidth when it comes to positive feedback, many of us have financially contributed to bandwidth and, if that ever becomes an issue, we will again.  While I invite opinion, I also laugh at the concerns over bandwidth.  Imagine someone warning da Vinci, Edison or Whittle about such desires to limit productivity and creativity!

I am the modeller I am because of this site.  I owe a tremendous amount to Scott van Aken who saw a pic of one of my What If's and told me "You know, there's this kinda oddball subculture of modellers over on this What If site...."   I owe Tom Choy a huge debt of gratitude.  I owe all of you who have ever taken the time to encourage me, either with direct praise or simply by showing me the way via your own endeavors.  

Whatever you want (or don't want) as replies to your own posts, I will definitely respect.

Here's hoping you will reciprocate said respect.

[Brian da Basher]

Very well said Mr Howling Mouse! Mr Supertom, thank you for re-opening the thread. I think this topic bears further discussion. It is possible many of us have over-reacted, myself included. We're all so used to the "uber-modelling" forums where often there is not true criticism, only a tearing down of others' work and no real desire to encourage improvement. Because of the thread I am going to be keeping an eye towards improving the quality of my builds. I think we need to take positives away from this and if even just one person is inspired to try harder, then it is a good thing.

The most important thing to keep in mind here is to have respect for everyone else on the board, no matter their skill level. Suggestions offered in a mature and positive manner and responded to likewise will no doubt be helpful.

I think we need a pinned topic with clear guidelines and a statement that the Admins will be carefully monitoring any criticism. This should ensure everything is kept on a freindly, respectful plane.

Brian da Basher

[cthulhu77]

Yep, thanks for re-opening the thread.

  It is obvious that there are many people on this site who's skill levels are waaaaay beyond the norm, as there are the norm, and the learning.  The big problem is, especially in a global climate, things can be taken different ways.  If we rip into the newcomer's, we might end up driving people away.  This was evidenced yesterday by a post on MM, where a simple question devolved into a whole sling-session about nazi's...totally off the point of the newcomer's question.

   Constructive criticism is fine, in measured doses...but, I've seen posts about my work such as "that camouflage is awful.", etc...they didn't bother to tell me what was so awful about it, just that it was awful.  That doesn't help me out much, now does it?

   I think the B-58 analogy was totally on-point...maybe a bad execution, but a great idea...now, all you have to do is help them with gaining more skills...and it is easier to do with a carrot, than it is with a stick.

[Eddie M.]

4) That the "old guard" doesn't care for newbies on the playground is poo-poo (with an english accent).

I apologize for making a comment of my perceptions of a previous statement. I'm just trying to understand the full motive to this debate. If Geoff brought it up, then he had a concern. I'm sure it's nothing like when you guys started this up. I've been here almost 2 years and I still feel like one of the new guys, not that anyone has treated me as such. This is a test to see how strong we are as time goes by and things evolve here.
   Eddie

[BlackOps]

Just a thought that might make things a bit easier for those on both sides of the fence. What if (    heh, heh I said What if  :dum: ) we all made a little more effort to describe the methods we use when posting our builds and especially try to post more in-progress pics.

It is far easier to learn when someone shows you what they have done than wait untill you are finished try to tell you how you could have done it. On the other hand if you SHOW someone your technique it is easier for them to suggest an alternate method you might be interested in, rather than just pointing out stuff that could have been better once you are done.

Just off the top of my head Barry, Leigh, and Eddie are a few folks I really admire for tackling seemingly daunting tasks but giving good reference photos or descriptions and letting us know the impossible isn't really impossible. OK, this list really should include quite a few folks but you know who you are  

I think more genuine dialog helps to keep things interesting. I do hope more folks will become active, I have seen more posts lately by folks who have been long time members but prefer to lurk, hope to see more lurkers come out and play.

[John Howling Mouse]

1. No one makes any constructive comments about posible alternative methods that might improve a build posted up, cause they run the risk of the wining liberals on here flameing them as JMN's for doing so.
>>> I can send you many, many examples of technical suggestions made by modellers on this site for their colleagues.

The flow of finished builds regardless of quality has slowed right down to a trickle, and always from the same few faces.
>>> Perhaps true but I would find that hard to prove, either way.  As we take on new members, I'm certainly seeing a lot of builds we never saw several years ago.  As for "finished" versus "unfinished" models, you may have a point.  The quantity of finished models, if in fact their numbers are dwindling, could be attributed to modellers being emboldened by the very existence of the encouraging folks on this site to attempt increasingly difficult builds, specific to their own personal abilities.  I know that is certainly the case for myself.  Yes, I can put together a model from start to finish in a few days, if I keep it relatively straight-forward.  But the enthusiasm I receive from the people on this site continually drives me to increasing difficult builds which take more and more time to complete.  I really meant what I said by "I am what I am as a modeller as the direct result of this site."

And most of the so called old guard hardly take part in the forum at all these days, because it's not the place they joined way back...
>>> Things continually evolve and this discussion is certainly proof of that. How has the place changed?  Who are the "old guard" and what would they like to see different?

the above may appear disjointed, but then again im only a semi skilled factory worker who happens to be Dyslexic.
>>> If you don't mind my asking: What do you make at work?

Hello, my responses are >>>embedded within your original text above.

For the sake of adult, respectful discussion, nothing less, nothing more.

[Geoff_B]

As for this idea of overpraising (if there is such a thing), unless the target of my praise him/herself so wishes it, I will not accept anyone's attempts to limit the degree of encouragement or the method of delivery I choose to give anyone. If I send you one of my "CARE" packages or a kit in the mail because you've impressed me or I just want to aid a fledgling builder, it is because it selfishly makes ME feel good. Nothing altruistic about it. If I want to comment with smilies or paragraphs or pictures of knitting needles and such, that's my call----UNLESS the artist specifically states they do not seek any praise or encouragement (believe the condition is called "anhedonia"?).

My father used to say something about "it takes a very small man to criticize, a big man to compliment, but an even bigger man to accept a compliment."

And like all good things should come in small doses !!!, the more its used the less value it holds....

As i said earlier whan you post up a model in the forum you can select the no reply option if you just wish to show your work , howver if not you then you are expecting an opinion from your peers be it good or bad, thus the nature of a 'Forum' what goes up gets discussed the pros & cons. To bias one over the other creates imbalance. Thus the emotive responses that have been brought about by this thread.

Anybody slagging will be breaching the respect guidelines of the forum anyway and are more likely to be reported for doing so, but offering solutions to build methods or techniques should be appropriate, its the only way some can learn from thier peers (ie ones who have learnt the hard way how not to do certain things    - like the U/C has to be fitted on an Airfix TSR2 before the belly plate as it wont fit in afterwards without some fettling)

G

[nev]

If I may say something to hopefully calm everybody down.  

I had a long discussion with Geoff this morning on MSN, and I have also exchanged PMs with Supertom.

There are no plans to created a "Dragons Den" at this moment.  What there are plans to do (once me or Geoff figure out how to do it), is to re-organise the forum, taking on board some of the suggestions in this thread.  This is more to do with tidying things up and focussing on modeling, and will not be a grand revolution, so do not fear.

As Eddie and others have pointed out, merely by Geoff bringing this subject up, there has already been a subtle change in the tone of threads involving models.  Clearly people are thinking about the issues that we have discussed in this thread.  Like I said, its subtle, and if you hadn't read this thread you might not have noticed it.

There are no changes in the rules, I won't be going around deleting posts that don't meet the new standard (whatever that may be) and no-one will be turned away (except Canadians.  We've run out of room to store their beer).

Hopefully the result of this little discussion will be small shift in the culture of the forum to enable us all to become better modelers - which was Geoffs original intent when he started the thread.

edit:  9000th post.  Someone superstitious like Rat would tell me thats an omen

[Shasper]

On the note of reorganizing the forms, could I suggest that all the non-modeling boards (like the everyday chat, gen luancy, ect) get moved to a separet section, and the other boards like the Swap shop, Tips, and pic post get moved up. I'd also think that anything having to relate to the GBs should be grouped accordingly, as well as any specialized boards (the TSR.2 forum comes to mind).


Just my .002% worth

Shas B)