Naming The Tsr.2 ...

[TsrJoe]

... from intensive archive searches there is NO evidence of the 'Eagle' name being allocated to the aircraft!

...erm...actually i might be partly to blame for this one, as during an interview with a chap connected with the project who was at the RAF. Staff College at the time, we mused as to a suitable name for the TSR.2, to which we came up with 'eagle', sounding good as well as this being the insignia of the RAF. (this being circa mid 90's and before finding a very important piece of correspondance which DID suggest a possible moniker for the type)

... as time passed and interest in the type in modelling circles took off with the release initially of the 'Arba' and later 'Resitech' kits (in all its incarnations) and through our IPMS. 'Research and Development' and 'What-if' SIG.'s (Lee, Gary, Geoff, et al) i thought it would be useful to have a sortv 'working name' for the type and suggested 'eagle' as being suitable in the absence of any hard evidince to the contrary at that time, it sounds good too for the type

... around this time there were a few other naming sugestions put forward in the magazines, 'trenchard', 'cygnet' etc. all of which i happily disregarded in the absence of any corroborating material and at the same time not pushing forward any alternatives in a sortv damage limitation exercise!

... a few years ago whilst searching through some files at the Public Records Office/National Archives, Kew, i was delighted to come across a scrap of paper as part of a correspondance re. naming the TSR.2, and the ministry's seeming delay in doing so, to which the person writing put forward an anocrym forming a suitable word name for the aircraft, 'VELVET', this seems to have been recieved (unfortunately any reply was not within the file) altho the name later resurfaces in a later note from a differing source using the 'VELVET' moniker as a matter of fact!
Ill freely admit this could be just one officials suggestion, the additional note could again have eminated from the same department and there may yet be somewhere lurking in the files a contradictory piece of evidence with a differing suggestion?

... my sincerest apologies to any confusion this may have caused to any researchers/modellers out there, anyway i still think its a perfect name for the type and it shouldv been 'Eagle'   B)  

cheers, Joe    

[TsrJoe]

... from notes made during a chat with Jim Dell, and further to my researches into official/unofficial names for the TSR.2...'the chaps working on them at BAC. knew them by nicknames...quote...
'jim' for 219, 'joe' for 220 and 'jasper' for 221'.. 'joe' still survives pretty much intact at Cosford, wheras jasper (or should that be 'casper'!) has disappeared!  

 

[uk 75]

Joe

Interesting revelation.  I can offer a couple of thoughts based on some years of study and talking to people in the business.

Although no name was ever allocated to TSR2 in British service I was told in the 80s by a chap at BAe Warton that the UK pushed the naming of MRCA as Tornado rather than Panther as first proposed(following Jaguar presumably) because it was a name already proposed for the Tactical Strike aircraft. However, I have no other source for that.

Other people I have spoken to in the MOD have suggested that where a number/name already existed in the popular usage (eg VC10) practice in the 70s was to leave it if it was snappy enough.  As both F111 and TSR2 were in popular media use before the planes entered service I suspect that they would have been the official names, with crews giving nicknames as appropriate.

So we are all free to speculate anon...

UK 75

[TsrJoe]

cool... i do know that EE. mooted the name 'Thunder' for the 'P.17 Canberra replacement' (and presumably later the 'TSR.2'?) to augment their 'Lightning' fighter, as expected Vickers as contract leader preferred a 'V' name for the type, (unfortunately iv no information as to what was suggested tho!) im assuming this led to an impasse with the chaps in the north!

Re. the GD. F.111K, iv found mention in published sources of the name 'Vengeance' being suggested for the type, (by this time the role was seen as a true 'V bomber' replacement) altho i understand theres a file at the PRO. on naming the aircraft 'Merlin' which as yet iv not had a chance to access!

another interesting lil snippet is that the 'TSR.2 as we all know originally was to 'GOR.339' and later 'OR.343', this was preceeeded by the designation 'B.58/1', being the first bomber project specification of 1958! I understand the system was changed to the GOR/OR. designation numbers during the same year! (which im sure possibly saved a lot of confusion with the Convair B.58 too!)

any more thoughts re the subject or indeed any snippets at all re the TSR.2 id love to hear...

cheers, Joe    

[elmayerle]

Re. the GD. F.111K, iv found mention in published sources of the name 'Vengeance' being suggested for the type, (by this time the role was seen as a true 'V bomber' replacement) altho i understand theres a file at the PRO. on naming the aircraft which as yet iv not had a chance to access!

Actually, that does make a lot of sense as GD was a descendent of Vultee who produced the "Vengenance" dive bomber, which I seem to remember was operated, at least somewhat, by British forces.

[DamienB]

Re. the GD. F.111K, iv found mention in published sources of the name 'Vengeance' being suggested for the type, (by this time the role was seen as a true 'V bomber' replacement) altho i understand theres a file at the PRO. on naming the aircraft which as yet iv not had a chance to access!

Either 'MERLIN' or 'RICHMOND' were what the UK were trying to push to the Australians on the F-111 name - the Aussies weren't having any of it and wanted 'TAIPAN' initially but then ended up thinking that 'F-111' was fine, so 'RICHMOND' was dropped and 'MERLIN' was to be the name for the F-111K.

Other suggestions that fell by the wayside were WARRIOR, SCORPION, THUNDERSTRIKE, PANTHER, THRUSTER, ODIN, FIREBOLT and TYPHOON among others even sillier...

[elmayerle]

Hmm, all this suggests the possibility of a long-winged FB-111K "Vengeance" as an interesting whiff; perhaps carrying Anglicized B61s.

[XV107]

I was informed by an RAF chap that 'Claymore' was mooted as a possibility for the TSR2, but again, there's no documentation to this effect.

I don't think that the Aussies  put Taipan forward as their favourite from what I can recall from the PRO file; it was the one name that the Air Staff over here thought viable when compared with the other suggestions, which (copied from an earlier post I made) were:

Namaran
Kakura
Innirinja
Yemindi (might be 'Yerrindi' my handwriting for that one is awful)
Malonga
Kurdaitcha
Arkana
Doora
Bilara
Galawindi
Derrilin
Atringa
Bambala
Warlick
Dinyalla
Thanggamau (with helpful note for the Air Force Board 'prounounced Thungamau')

As I think I said in another post about this, the RAF nearly came up with Harrogate as the name, but thought Richmond (given that there are towns of this name in the UK, Australia and US) was the most appropriate town name if the old practice of naming bombers was to be followed. Mercifully, the Air Staff decided that something snappier was needed...

[TsrJoe]

Iv a note of a sugested name for the BAC. TSR.2 from the PRO. which i think i mentioned on a previopus thread ...

Im really going to have to get back down to the National Archives to look into the F.111 files a bit further

re the Hawker P.1154, i understand from published sources that it was to be known as the 'Harrier' in service...

the AW/HS. 681 theres a mention in the archives of the name 'Aldershot' being proposed for the type

cheers, joe    

[harrier]

Joe

AIR 20/11504 (Naming P.1127) has the results of opinion on possible names canvassed for the P.1154.  However, it may say something about TSR.2

The selection for the P.1154 was Harrier, Peregrine, Falcon and Hotspur.

No clear winner was indicated, although IIRC this list was from No.38 Group only. Harrier seems to have been used or preferred in the RAF, but was never formally bestowed.

Mike

[BadersBusCompany]

... from notes made during a chat with Jim Dell, and further to my researches into official/unofficial names for the TSR.2...'the chaps working on them at BAC. knew them by nicknames...quote...
'jim' for 219, 'joe' for 220 and 'jasper' for 221'.. 'joe' still survives pretty much intact at Cosford, wheras jasper (or should that be 'casper'!) has disappeared!  

So was there no nickname for the TSR.2 (XR222) languishing at Duxford?  

[TsrJoe]

not that i know of (unless the students/staff had a nickname for the airframe... white elephant seems suitable, lol) XR222 was nowhere near completion at the time of cancellation so would have been unlikely to have been bestowed a nickname at that time ?

just a thought...has anyone seen any images of XR222 prior to delivery to Cranfield College of Aeronautics? Iv noticed the airframe didnt seem to have had a fuselage serial applied until repainted for display at IWM. Duxford ?

cheers, Joe  

[red arrow jag]

Hmmm.....how about BAC TSR2 (Swan)   

[kitnut617]

Joe, ( and I'm assuming that you are Joe Cherrie ) this is an answer I got from Tony Buttler when I had questioned him sometime ago through Air-Britain, on what a possible name was for the TSR2:

Hi Robert,
I have at last spoken to my good friend Joe Cherrie who is writing a book on TSR.2. The favoured name for TSR.2 was 'Velvet', although one professional institute had suggested Eagle, a name that was free at the time. Joe has been through all of the archives and this is as far as the story appears to go. Incidentally, he also tells me that English Electric had wanted to call the original P.17 the Thunder (presumably to go with Lightning).

Hope this helps.
Very Best Wishes,
Tony.

Can you remember this conversation with Tony?  I don't see the name Velvet appear anywhere in this thread!

Robert

[uk 75]

Many years ago I got to know some of the sales people from BAe Warton and inevitably TSR 2 came up in conversation.   They certainly had never heard of the TSR 2 getting a name other than TSR 2 (which the company used in its ads and brochures right up to cancellation). However, when the MRCA name was discussed and the original suggestion was going to be "Panther" (like Jaguar), the UK apparently pushed "Tornado" because it had already been doing the rounds informally for TSR 2 (would fit the Lightning, Thunder idea I suppose). However, I have never found any other sources for this.

I think it is worth looking at the situation in the 60s for aircraft names.  The US (to whom we seemed to defer a lot) had the SR 71, A11 and F111, all being usually so referred rather than by their names. TSR 2 had become such public property as a name by 1965 that I believe the service would not have pushed for a name.

Not keen on Eagle (too American) or Merlin (an engine not a plane). A V name would have been a real political hot potato as Polaris was supposed to replace the V Force. However, the UK did have its Valiant force allocated to SACEUR. I like the idea of TSR 2 being saved to perform this role. My name "Vindicator" comes from the Ian Fleming book "Thunderball".

TSR 2 still rules

UK 75