Thinking Of Doing A Raf Scooter

[upnorth]

Hello all:

I suspect the idea of a RAF A-4 Skyhawk may have come up here before, But I couldn't find any recent threads about it.

I have a couple of leftover decal sheets; one from airfix's 1/72 BAC Lightning F.3 with some low vis 11 Sqn. markings I quite like and another sheet from Airfix's most recent issue of their 1/72 Sepecat Jaguar with the really small tactical roundels and some 16 Sqn. markings I quite like.

One of my LHSs has about half a dozen 1/72 Fujimi Scooters of different variations and from all I've heard of them, I'm sorely tempted to buy one. The OA-4M and A-4KU are particularly tempting.

Anyway, I'm trying to think of a real world situation that might have lead to the RAF taking Scooters and frankly I can't think of much.

Possibility #1:  The Harrier gets cancelled as some nitwit in Parliament decides VTOL is a pipe dream. This would leave a gap for a small, high subsonic strike aircraft to be filled. I suspect the financial loss from Harrier cancelation might make a foreign built aircraft a neccessity.

Possibility #2: The Hawk trainer gets cancelled (not sure how though) and the need for an advanced, light combat capable trainer is left open.

Are either of these scenarios somewhat plausible?

As for paint schemes, I'm thinking of either a hemp over grey with low vis roundels and the 11 Sqn. markings or a 16 Sqn. machine in the green over green that the GR.5 Harriers had when they entered service.

I think I'd also remove that crude bolt on refueling probe and build a semi retractable one on one of the intakes, just as the Harriers have.

If I do build a RAF Scooter, what would the most likely variant might have been for RAF service? I am leaning towards the OA-4M at the moment.

Any input and insights are welcome.

[Geoff]

Jennings did a great article on the FAA use of the A-4; hows about when the carriers are scrapped the A-4s get handed over to the RAuxAF?  

[Martin H]

well untill this month 11 sqn was air to air all the way, now with its new toys its a dual role unit. but since when has reality stopped us on here?

might be a suitable alternative to the jag in RAF service as a ground pounder. Trainer or target tug would be pretty good ideas for an RAF scooter thou.

[MCS]

I suspect the idea of a RAF A-4 Skyhawk may have come up here before, But I couldn't find any recent threads about it.

Here's a link to Jennings' FAA article in case you're interested:

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/skyhawk...servicejh_1.htm

[Nigel Bunker]

Like this?

[Damian2]

Make like Nike and JUST DO IT!  

[GTX]

Another possible scenario would be for the Harrier or Jaguar to have been forced to be retired from service early (say due to fatigue problems).  This results in the RAF looking for a rapid replacement , relatively inexpensive in the form of the Skyhawk.  You could also do a RN FAA version instead of the Shar - say with Blue Fox radar.

Regards,

Greg  

[NARSES2]

I once toyed with the idea of the RAuxAF being reformed. Initially on F5's and then A4's

Chris

[Captain Canada]

Like this?

And this ?



BTW....sweet ride, Nigel ! I don't recall seeing it before, but wouldn't object to seeing more of it !



I think Scooters would be an awesome idea for RAF/RN service. Go for it !

[upnorth]

Thanks for the ideas everyone.

I picked up my Scooter today, Fujimi's 1/72 A-4C, as I actually prefer humpless Scooters when it comes right down to it.

I'm thinking of picking up an aftermarket bang seat for it and doing a few mods to place it in a mid 80s timeframe.

The IFR probe is going semi retractable either on one of the intakes (Harrier style) or on top of the nose just in front of the cockpit on the centreline.

I'm going to rework the nose slightly to look like the Harrier GR.5 and pop the laser into it.

I'm pretty much solidly on the hemp over grey scheme, but still tossed between 11 or 16 Sqn markings. I also have some 5 Sqn. Lightning unit markings that are somewhat tempting too.

As for the bang seat, whats good for the post Falklands/pre Granby timeframe in the Martin Baker catalog that might fit a Scooter? I'm thinking an MK.7 but not sure.

BTW, Nigel and Cap, those are sweet looking A-4s!  

[Hatchet]

One could imagine some problems in the Jaguar team (heck, the same teammembers had trouble enough agreeing on wether to spell it Concord or Concorde!), leading to the cancellation of that (or the British part of it anyway), which would open the door for the Scooters.

[dragon]

Does the RAF have an equivalent to TOP GUN?  You know, an Agressor squadron for training in disimilar aircraft combat.  Just a thought B)  

[AeroplaneDriver]

Thanks for the ideas everyone.

I picked up my Scooter today, Fujimi's 1/72 A-4C, as I actually prefer humpless Scooters when it comes right down to it.

I'm thinking of picking up an aftermarket bang seat for it and doing a few mods to place it in a mid 80s timeframe.

The IFR probe is going semi retractable either on one of the intakes (Harrier style) or on top of the nose just in front of the cockpit on the centreline.

I'm going to rework the nose slightly to look like the Harrier GR.5 and pop the laser into it.

I'm pretty much solidly on the hemp over grey scheme, but still tossed between 11 or 16 Sqn markings. I also have some 5 Sqn. Lightning unit markings that are somewhat tempting too.

As for the bang seat, whats good for the post Falklands/pre Granby timeframe in the Martin Baker catalog that might fit a Scooter? I'm thinking an MK.7 but not sure.

BTW, Nigel and Cap, those are sweet looking A-4s!

The Mk.9 was fitted to the Harrier and Jaguar.  It would likely fit the A-4 with no problems.

You cant beat a UK Scooter for an interesting whif!

[XV107]

The last A-4C was delivered to the USN in 1962, with the first A-4Es appearing soon afterwards (from memory about Jan 1963?). First operational A-4C appeared in (again IIRC) 1960. That leaves a fairly short timescale for the RAF to order them.

I'd suggest that the likeliest scenario in that case would be an early appreciation that Sandys was quite wrong, and an expansion of the air force, possibly in Germany. Of course, the obvious candidate aircraft for such an expansion (at least as far as ground attack goes) would be more Hunter 9s, but this is at about the same time as some RN officers (e.g. Charles Lambe) were advocating the RAF operating from carrier decks - this would, in effect, have been a joint force [insert name of aircraft]. In this case, with no obvious UK aircraft capable of operating from smaller carriers, the A-4 would've been the perfect choice.

So assume that a far-sighted Joint Force Skyhawk (initially known as Joint Force 1960 from the 1960 Defence White Paper by Harold Watkinson).

Watkinson's concept was for the joint force to be deployed from the extant RN carriers - Ark Royal, Victorious, Eagle, Centaur & Hermes, plus Albion which was not converted to a commando carrier like Bulwark was, with HMS Glory and Thesus being converted for this role instead of paying off for disposal as originally planned.

The small size of the A-4 meant that it was the perfect choice for use from the smaller carriers, and its nuclear capability meant that it was an alternative to the Buccaneer, giving those carriers which found the Bucc a bit of a tight fit the abiliyt to deploy extra 'strikers'.

The A-4C's limited pylon capacity was a source of concern, so the RAF and RN aircraft were given the ability to carry four rails for 60lb rockets roughly in the position where the outboard pylons would be fitted on the A-4E (the A-4C not having the engine power to carry anything heavier than the RPs), up to a total of eight weapons.


So which RAF units? Assuming this is a reversal of the Sandys cutbacks, with squadrons that were meant to disband in 1960/61 carrying on with what they have and that A-4 delivery occurs between 1960 and 1962, there are quite a few options. These would be:

1)  The one Venom unit that didn't reform at all, namely 94 Squadron

2) Hunter squadrons in RAFG that hadn't reformed in this period (or which didn't reform at all) were 67 & 71. 112 reformed in summer 1960 as a Bloodhound unit, so its numberplate would've been an obvious choice (given slight seniority over 67 and 71).

3) Hunter squadrons in the UK that disbanded in 1957/58 and which hadn't reformed on something else in the interim - 34 (but where would you put the huge Wolf & Crescent moon insignia on a Skyhawk??) 63, 222 (although this reforms as a Bloodhound unit in late Spring 1960 in reality)

[P1127]

I agree with XV107. For a Jaguar failure, the A-7 or F-5 would be a better purchase.  If you did an RAF A-4M/N, then a Harrier alternative is a good idea.

Or go completely off piste and have the RAF involved in Vietnam.