Offensive/Defensive Loads

[Geoff_B]

My martels are coming straight from the Airfix 72nd Buccaneer S2.

Best source for 'em !!!, althougth i think Martels are in the Fujimi Harrier kits.

Speaking of Buccaneers Lee, how about ane of the fitted out as TSR-2 Avionics testbed or backseater trainer, maybe some of the S1 from the FAA when replaced by the S2's. Put the extra electronics kit in the Bombay, and if its bulged mount the sideways looking radar on it , the radar would fit in the nose cone ok, paint up the canopy TSR-2 style with a full backseat console ?

Cheers

Thor  B)  

[Geoff_B]

Hi Joe

To post photos here they need to be on a website and be compatible to be posted  here. The only ones that can be uploaded is in the picture post section, where they must be no more than 64k (I think). MSN is no good for hosting photos for here that why i use a link instead.

Cheers on the Weapons details, just thought that by the mid to late 60's the S1's would be replaced by S2's allowing more second line duties with them, and i expect they flew more like a TSR2 at low level.

Geoff B B)  

[lancer]

Snap Wooksta, but I used the Sea Eagle version from the Bucc kit for my Phoenix.

[lancer]

And the pylons as well?

Yeah, although I did cut them down a bit.

[elmayerle]

Just an interesting thought in passing, start with scaled up versions of the French fuel tank/bomb rack units carried by at least some Mirage III's (each carried 4 x 250 kg. bombs plus what works out to roughly 1000 lb of fuel) to carry four 1000 lb LGB's, put a Pave Tack, semi-recessed, in the weapon's bay, and suitable laser guided ASM's on the outer pylons.  IMHO, this would look good in Gulf War I markings.

[Zen]

You folks seem to have forgotten Taildog a.k.a SRAAM, that would most likely be the alternate self defence weapon.

There was also a ARM version called SRARM.

[elmayerle]

IMHO, JP233 is suitable only for incorporation into a cruise missile that you don't mind losing on such a mission.  I may try something like that with the JP233 from an Airfix NATO Weapons set.

I keep thinking of later TSR.2's with tracking/designating systems like Pave Tack mounted semi-submerged in the weapons bay and laser guided bombs and/or missiles on the pylons.

[Hobbes]

JP233 - whilst an effective weapon it leaves the aircraft using it somewhat vulnerable, requiring the pilot to fly low and straight and level over the target, leaving him open to being shot at by all sorts of nasty weapons.  If anyone says this is a good idea, ask John Nichol.  Personally, I'd just dump a MOAB out the back of a Galaxy on the target and blast the whole area.  Stuff the enemy casualities, it's war and the enemy is there to be killed.

MOAB wouldn't be a very effective replacement for JP233: JP233 contains runway cratering and AP mine submunitions, they're combined to deny access to a runway for a longer period. MOAB is a single (if humongous) airburst.
To replace JP233, you'd need to deliver those submunitions in a standoff missile. The technology is available (Tomahawk can deliver submunitions), so this shouldn't be too hard.  

[Geoff_B]

MOAB wouldn't be a very effective replacement for JP233: JP233 contains runway cratering and AP mine submunitions, they're combined to deny access to a runway for a longer period. MOAB is a single (if humongous) airburst.
To replace JP233, you'd need to deliver those submunitions in a standoff missile. The technology is available (Tomahawk can deliver submunitions), so this shouldn't be too hard.

Hmmn i thought MOAB was more an earthquake bomb, modern version of Barnes Wallis's TallBoy & Grand Slam. A very big accurate bomb to attack hardened targets or cave systems. The Airbusrt stuff ie the Fual Air Explosive stuff dropped out a Herc and shown in the movie "Outbreak".

JP233 is classed as illegal in the UK as are the BL755 Cluster bombs as we signed up to the agreement to ban them. The UK replacements as such are the brimstone for more accurate pinpoint strikes and the usual laser or GPS guided bombs. We don't appear to have a runway penetrator any longer but then again were not trying to hit soviet airfields in East Germany anymore either. Now we'll hit the key buildings with storm shadow, radar with alarm and 2000lb Paveway onto hangers and centre of the runway, with out having to overfly the place itself.

BTW on the issue of JP233 attacks in the Gulf War I, i recently picked up the osprey book on Iranian F-4 Phantoms in the Iran-Iraq war where they used to strike Iraqi airfields form the different compass points at low level. As a result its highly likely that the Iraqi air defence units were very familair with low level attacks against them from war experience and made life very difficult for our low level attacks.

Cheers

G B)  

[Hobbes]

MOAB  is an air blast-type warhead. The casing doesn't seem to be built to penetrate concrete. Tall Boy and Grand Slam were penetrators.  

[Geoff_B]

Whoops sorry Hobbes you were right.  

[nev]

JP233 is classed as illegal in the UK as are the BL755 Cluster bombs as we signed up to the agreement to ban them.

As I understand it, the "illegallity" comes from the minelets that comprise some of the sub-munitions, not the weapons themselves.  As such I've never understood why we didn't just take mini-mines out - not that it ever stopped us from using them anyway  :dum:  

[Geoff_B]

JP233 is classed as illegal in the UK as are the BL755 Cluster bombs as we signed up to the agreement to ban them.

As I understand it, the "illegallity" comes from the minelets that comprise some of the sub-munitions, not the weapons themselves.  As such I've never understood why we didn't just take mini-mines out - not that it ever stopped us from using them anyway  :dum:

Hi Nev

I expect because the pod and its sub munitions are pretty much integrated.

"JP.233 was carried by Panavia Tornadoes and was used operationally in the 1991 Gulf War. However, the vast airfields built in Iraq provided many alternative runways that could be used in the event of an airfield denial attack. The other problem was that the Iraqi air defences were very heavy and possessed many light anti-aircraft guns. Since the Tornadoes were required to overfly the target at very low level, the AAA took its toll. This prompted the RAF to re-assess its tactics and draw up a requirement for a stand-off weapon to attack targets such as airfields.

The JP.233 submunitions were later banned under the Ottawa Protocol that bans the use of landmines. "

From Chris Gibsons Skomer site Skomer


Not much point in designing alternative contact sub munitions when we wouldn't be using them anymore due to have to fly the line of the Runway . Look nice on a model however  ^_^

G B)

[Aircav]

Still trying to work out how you say a weapon is illegal in war, sounds a bit like I'm going to fight a war but with one hand tied behind my back

[Hobbes]

The idea is to outlaw mines. These tend to last a lot longer than the war they were intended for, and are a bitch to clean up, so they end up making more civilian/peacetime casualties than hurting the people they were aimed at.