The 500 Phantom Group Build

[Radish]

I'm not too "up" with these matters, but surely the AVON wasn't powerful enough?
Why not THREE of them though....like a Trident arrangement?  

[elmayerle]

Actually, the early J79s weren't that much more powerful than contemporary Avons or ATARs but they had lots more growth potential and were more compact to begin with.  I could see a one-off version of a F-4A or F-4B with ATARs or Avons instead of J79s.  After all, most of the way through the design process, what became the Phantom II used two J65s, the US-built version of the Sapphire.

[Archibald]

Joe Baugher mention the thing - McAir dubbed it "Model 98DX" (or something like that).
I've made some tries and its seems that Atar exhausts fit well to the Phantom fuselage, hurray!!!
Considering the timeline, variant of the Atar would have the 9K31 of the Mirage IV, giving 6800 kg of thrust (and interesting conection with Aussies Mirage IVs instead of F-111s  B) )
Well the Atar was a BMW-003 pushed to its extreme limits while the J-79 was a brand-new product, so it's no surprise the two had not the same growth potential...

[ysi_maniac]

I've made some tries and its seems that Atar exhausts fit well to the Phantom fuselage, hurray!!!

But Atar 09 was more than 600 mm longer than J79.  

[Archibald]

I've made some tries and its seems that Atar exhausts fit well to the Phantom fuselage, hurray!!!

But Atar 09 was more than 600 mm longer than J79.

Whatif world    

[elmayerle]

I've made some tries and its seems that Atar exhausts fit well to the Phantom fuselage, hurray!!!

But Atar 09 was more than 600 mm longer than J79.

Which would likely push the forward face of the engine that much father forward.  There'd be some fuselage redesign, which would mitigate against a production version, but a "one-off" to test the concept wouldn't be that implausible (no worse, really, than the J79-powered F-101 testbed).  Interesting that both the Atar and the J79 have German connections (the chief designer of the J79 was a German engineer who'd left Germany in '38 or so, wound up as a mechanic for the AVG, and ended up becoming a naturalized US citizen - his autobiography is a fascinating read).

[Archibald]

a "one-off" to test the concept wouldn't be that implausible

That's the idea in fact - Australia want an Atar-powered Phantom, a prototype is build, is found to be underpowered, too costly. and finally rejected.
The lone machine end in CEV fleet in the mid-60's.  
15 years later three ex-USAF J-79 machines  join the CEV fleet, too.      

In fact the CEV fleet included (AFAIK)
- Meteors
- Canberras
- Mirage IIIB/C
- Vautours.

Here's a pic I like very much, a CEV Mirage IIIB  

[Archibald]

By an odd coincidence, french magazine Air Fan has a good article about CEV Mirage 2000s this month... 8 of them, one of them having a... Rafale nose and IRST.
Guess what aircraft were considered 15 years ago when Rafale development started ?  Mirage IV and...






...













PHANTOM !!!!

[ysi_maniac]

By an odd coincidence, french magazine Air Fan has a good article about CEV Mirage 2000s this month... 8 of them, one of them having a... Rafale nose and IRST.
Guess what aircraft were considered 15 years ago when Rafale development started ?  Mirage IV and...
PHANTOM !!!!

You know I love Phantom, but I think that 15 years ago it was already old. I remember to read something abut F-15E for AdA. Have you read something on this possibility?

[Archibald]

By an odd coincidence, french magazine Air Fan has a good article about CEV Mirage 2000s this month... 8 of them, one of them having a... Rafale nose and IRST.
Guess what aircraft were considered 15 years ago when Rafale development started ?  Mirage IV and...
PHANTOM !!!!

You know I love Phantom, but I think that 15 years ago it was already old. I remember to read something abut F-15E for AdA. Have you read something on this possibility?

I think they wanted a Phantom or a Mirage IV just because of room and twin-engine layout -before discovering that a good old Mirage 2000 could do the job as well

F-15E for AdA ? kill, drawn or burn Dassault first, then it would be possible...
More seriously, it seems that the AdA considered the F-15 (along Tornado) as a backup for the Mirage ACF in 1975. The service ended with the Mirage 2000, and much later the Rafale...  

Never heard of F-15E for the AdA...

[elmayerle]

F-15E for AdA ? kill, drawn or burn Dassault first, then it would be possible...
More seriously, it seems that the AdA considered the F-15 (along Tornado) as a backup for the Mirage ACF in 1975. The service ended with the Mirage 2000, and much later the Rafale...  

Never heard of F-15E for the AdA...

I don't know about the F-15E for the AdA, but I've seen pics of one of the F-15 prototypes in French markings for demonstration to a party form AdA.

[Archibald]

Yeap - Edwards AFB, April 1976. This was just after ACF cancellation I've mentioned earlier.
The AdA wanted a heavy fighter since the mid-50's but had to wait 50 years for that, until the Rafale entered service, in may 2006... the quest was a long haul, to say the least.    
For 50 years, a bunch of machines were considered, still without results (for political and financial reasons).
The Rafale represent a major breaktrough for the AdA which since 50 years always has short-range, single-engine interceptors...

[Archibald]

So, any date for this group build ? I suppose that, with so much GB on track now, we'll have to wait some months...    
 

[GTX]

Radish,

Here's a challenge for you - the ultimate Phantom version - the RBCF-4XYZ:



Regards,

Greg

[Radish]

Ye jest