F-4 (F4H-1)(F-110) Phantom

[Glenn Harper]

I'm in favour of the 'J for my little scenario (go to[a href=\"http://members.tripod.com/ta152h/index-2.html\" target=\"_blank\"]WW3 Warbirds in 1:72nd[/a] as, mentioned before by someone, the idea of the Canadians having a carrier in the late '60s or  early '70s is cute.

Here's the load for the CF-4J Canadian Armed Forces fast FAC that's in the box and partly started: 4 x AIM-7E (belly possies), centreline Mk5 20mm cannon pod (because I've got one and want to use it on something), the usual drop tanks on the outers, with a Pave Knife laser designator on the left inner and a TER with 2 x LAU-10 Zuni rocket launchers and a single Rockeye under a pair of AIM-9s on the left inner.

Another idea I've had would be to fit Phoenix AAMs on a Canadian NORAD interceptor (possibly based around an F-4S;  big radome and nice wing slats). If you can't afford an F-14 or F-15 or need an interim missile thrower, you could do worse. I'd call this the CF-4T or something like that (using left over letters from the F-4 sequence). Yeah, and a night ID light, too.

["But last night the plans of a future war
Was all I saw on Channel Four"
Morrissey, from Shoplifters of the world]

[Matt Wiser]

I was checking some articles on the F-4 and they all mentioned potential users of the Phantom-but didn't get the plane for various reasons-here's the list as I recall:

Argentina-requested 24 in 1977-Mr. Peanut (AKA Pres. Carter refused)
Brazil-requested the Phantom in 1972-State Dept. refused to authorize the sale despite DOD approval
Australia-wanted to keep the two dozen that were leased pending the F-111C delivery and considered ordering more-that went down when McAir wouldn't allow an Aussie final assembly of the aircraft down under.
Kuwait-36 ordered in early '73-cancelled after 1973 Yom Kippur War.
Saudi Arabia-72 ordered in '73-cancelled when McAir demo'd the F-15.
Taiwan: Requested 60 aircraft and a license production line in 1974-refused due to Nixon/Ford Admins' detente with PRC.
South Vietnam: Asked for 48 Phantoms as part of Vietnamization in 1970-deemed too complex for VNAF to maintain.
Canada: Known to have been demo'd to RCAF-anyone know why our northern neighbors didn't buy the Rhino?
Jordan: Ordered 24 in 1976-Israeli lobby in Congress blocked sale-they bought the Mirage F-1 instead.
Italy: E offered to AMI in early '70s but no order placed.Only major NATO country other than Canada and France NOT to get the F-4.
Pakistan: offered along with A-7s in 1977-8 if Pakistanis would halt their nuke program-they refused.    
RF version offered to RAF and RN-RAF version would have been a Spey-powered RF-4C; RN version would have been a Spey powered RF-4B.
RF-4E also offered to Egypt but declined.
McAir did offer the Phantom to France, but Dassault lobbied against a sale of the E and RF-4E.

Any thoughts?

[Alvis]

Hmmm...Cuban Air Guard, after a reconciliation in the late 60s between Castro and President B. Kennedy, Cuba receives 3 squadrons of E Phantoms to replace their MiG 19 and 21s. One squadron was to see action over Grenada with the US/Cuban invasion. Eventually replaced by the F-16 in the late 1980s.
I do like the Polish option...
Alvis :aa

[Matt Wiser]

Here are a few more possible F-4 operators-although they didn't consider the plane or it was too expensive to even think about ordering-circumstances under which getting Phantoms did exist:

Thailand-USAF leaves two squadrons' worth of F-4Es in the pullout post-Vietnam in 1975 after Saigon fell. Additional purchases after Viets invade Cambodia in 1978.

Singapore: Need for a interceptor with BVR capability leads them to purchase Phantoms after British pullout-augments their F-5Es in air-to-air and the A-4 in air-to-mud.

Oman: Fear of Khomeni's Iran in 1979 and possible Soviet move following Afghanistan-Oman gets the 31 F-4Es that Iran had on order at the time of the Revolution but were cancelled.

Ecuador: Ongoing rivalry with Peru-US supplies Phantoms after Soviets supply (and they did IRL) Su-22 Fitters to Peru. Attempt at preempting a French sale of Mirage F-1s and Jaguars (which did take place, along with Israel selling Kifrs).
Mr. Peanut imposed a ban on such sales to Latin America in 1977-which Reagan lifts in 1981 (IRL was lifted two years ago-now Chile is getting F-16s) Aircraft used in 1995 border war with Peru-they kill several Peruvian aircraft and lead to Peru ordering MiG-29s from Russia.

[retro_seventies]

Hope this helps.  I have one partially completed, made from parts of 2 f-14's and an f-4S.  Planned to be a late service RAF example, awaiting replacement by Eurofighter Typhoon (in the air to ground role - the RAF having procured the swing wing phantom in place of the jag and bucc).

[noxioux]

That is excellent, retro.  Exactly what the doctor ordered.  Now, the decision of whether or not it's a good idea to cut my mostly completed f-14 into little bits. . .

I was starting to think along the lines of a Sukhoi "Fitter", with a similar shaped scratchbuilt wing, and less of the F-14 or F-111 looking setup.  But either way, it's an interesting idea.

Thanks!!!  

[Leigh]

WHY?
I love the look and the idea, but so many changes shoulder mounted wings, tail surfaces, undercarraige involved you almost have a completely new airframe. Why would this be considered feasable or costworthy instead of just a completely new design a la the F-14?

Think you could make the wings from a Tornado work on a kitbash?

[retro_seventies]

I was thinking that the wing fold would be the straight line near the wing root.

that's rather nice - that kind of wing would pretty good on a cougar (or maybe a tiger) don't you think?

I don't see why tornado wings wouldn't be fine, ditto the fencer ones, all depends how much (or little) work you feel like doing on them - there's always the JHM scratchbuild and shape route too...

I found that the f-14 ones did fine, and it wasn't really that hard to throw them on a phantom once i'd had a drink to steady the hand that weilds the dremel.

Plenty of filling and sanding, and there's always that nagging suspicion that you really *should* be sanding and filling a little more - i know that mine had a blast of primer and then got more filler and more sanding, and i still don't think it's ready for it's "real" paint yet.

Rescribing is indeed going to be a pain in the arse, and i'm not looking at this being a finished model this year (for the second year running).  seriously, this has been 2 years now that i've been fiddling with this, but hey - they say that every man needs a hobby, eh?

I was thinking alarms, drop tanks, a couple of CBUs and a couple of 'winders just in case (pretty much like the SEAD loadout that the Tornado F3 carries).

One day...

Good luck Noxioux - i have no doubt that a better (and more motivated) modeler than me could really nail this one!

[GeorgeC]

Not the snappiest of titles, but does anyone have any information on the camera (?) pod that could be seen mounted on the forward port Sparrow recess on RAF F4s?  I have only seen this equipment mounted on aircraft in the earlier, FGR role rather than the later, AD role.

[Howard of Effingham]

easy to scratchbuild, but not sure if ever done in resin. is available in the fujimi
FGR2 phantom kit [the one with the fin top RWR] if you can ever find one.

trevor

[GeorgeC]

Thanks Trevor, but what, exactly, is in it?  Given that it is carried in the early 70s it is unlikely to be a laser target seeker and can't (?) be a laser ranging and bombing system as the Navigation and Weapon Aiming System NAVWAS that was the great (only) advantage of the Jaguar.  While it could be a weapon training camera, I always assumed it was a simple, forward arc camera system for opportunity 'snaps' on armed recce rather than the huge, complex pod carried by 2 Sqn in the dedicated recce role.  There were a the couple of cameras built into the Harrier GR1 nose for this purpose, but these took lateral shots and I have some recollection that forward-facing cameras on low-level, near supersonic aircraft were given up by the RAF as a waste of film.

[upnorth]

I have read in various references about RAF Phantoms carrying something called a "strike camera".

Judging by the name of the device, I'd assume it was for recording missile, rocket or gun hits. That the Phantom in your post has rockets under the wings and a gun pod on centreline leads me to think the gadget you're asking about might just be one of those cameras.

[GeorgeC]

I was told on another website:

The fixed forward facing oblique camera mount on an RAF Phantom was a Vinten F95 Mk 7 (70mm) with a 3 inch lens mounted at 20 deg depression.

So it is a small recce camera pod used as an alternative to the massive, complex beast used by the specialist recce sqns.  No doubt it could be used to 'snap' when weapons were fired, providing battle damage assessment and helping post-training debriefing.  

[Jeffry Fontaine]

The camera pod in the image is also available in one of the Hasegawa 1/48th scale F-4 kits.  A strike camera was also carried by some USAF F-4C/D during the Vietnam unpleasantness, the real difference being that the USAF version was fitted with a vertical camera and your RAF camera appears to be forward facing.     

While you are upgrading the Rhino, you might want to consider the one piece windscreen that was tested on some of the Missouri ANG F-4Es stationed at St. Louis IAP.  I am still trying to decide on which would be the better donor; F-15 or F-18?  Both have a nice one piece windscreen but adapting it to the F-4 might be a problem.  Same thing could be and should be considered with any upgraded F-8 or A-7 by the way.   

After dwelling on this for a bit longer, I think that the best thing to do would be to use the cockpit and instrument panels from a two seat F-18 to update the Rhino cockpit.  This might justify the expenditure for obtaining the clear parts if you are going to kit bash and make it better.   

[ysi_maniac]

I have just read in a website http://wapedia.mobi/es/McDonnell_Douglas_F...ntom_II?p=6#3.2. (sorry, it is in spanish) that in 1963 MacDonnell offered RAAF Atar powered Phantoms.
Semi PHRENCH PHANTOMS