F-4 (F4H-1)(F-110) Phantom

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

I thought about something: what about an anti-ship Phantom??

There is enough place under its wings and fuselage to fit a large payload of Harpoon, Penguin, or even HARM, Shrike and torpedoes!

And what about an anti-ship cruise missile, maybe something derived from th esub launched anti-ship Tomahawk (but maybe lighter and smaller)?

[dy031101]

There is enough place under its wings and fuselage to fit a large payload of Harpoon, Penguin, or even HARM, Shrike and torpedoes!

Japanese reportedly have their F-4EJ Kai compatible with ASM-1 (under the outboard wing hardpoints) so that the Phantoms can take over anti-ship missions from the aging F-1 support fighters.

Since you are wanting to WHIF-it up, how about going with that new F-22 camouflage that has the metallic look to it?

That one suggestion actually prompted me to start imagining a Phantom counterpart of EA-6B.

To ensure suitability for inter-service use (i.e. to land on carriers), what I have in mind is to be based on F-4N or F-4S.  Basically add a canoe-shaped fin top fairing as well as (as needed) antenna blades/blisters on the tail fin and/or throughout the fuselage.

Loadouts include: two ALQ-99 pods and either two AGM-88 HARMs or drop tanks under the wings, three AIM-7 Sparrows or maybe AIM-120 AMRAAMs in the fuselage missile wells, a pod representing communications jammer in the one unoccupied missile well at the front, and a third ALQ-99 pod on the centreline.

Then add that camouflage scheme used by F-22......

To represent machines in their early years, use AGM-45 or AGM-78 for ARMs then omit the communications jammer pod and load all four missile wells with Sparrow.  Use SEA camo. scheme or comtemporary USN or USMC colours

Suggestions for improvement welcomed.

[coops213]

Instead of just replacing the windscreen, how about replacing the whole canopy? Give it a one piece canopy maybe taken from an F-14 or F-15 and modified somewhat. Something to give the crew all round better visibility.

Chris

[elmayerle]

I've in mind a couple single-seat Phantoms.  One's a conversion of the standard two-seater with a reduced height canopy like the early F4H-1s while the other is a purposely-designed single-seat with a cockpit and canopy similar to the F3H or the intermediate AH-1 proposal.

[Daryl J.]

What if McDD and Hawker colluded on the Phantom as they did on the Harrier?

The Spey Phantom would then have ogival main wing tips, still with dogtooth and upturn, a slightly higher ogival vertical fin tip, and horizontal stabs that looked like the offspring of the Yank Phantom and, say perhaps, the Victor K2 but downturned.
Green over Green    

Squadron recommendations?
Perhaps it would be the Phantom GR.3 (or 4,5,6,7.....whichever)


This one may just have to be built in Ye Olde Basement.


Daryl J.

[Archibald]

I have just read in a website http://wapedia.mobi/es/McDonnell_Douglas_F...ntom_II?p=6#3.2. (sorry, it is in spanish) that in 1963 MacDonnell offered RAAF Atar powered Phantoms.
Semi PHRENCH PHANTOMS  

this is actually what I plan for the Phantom GB, if it ever start one day

[Jeffry Fontaine]

What if McDD and Hawker colluded on the Phantom as they did on the Harrier?

That might be interesting to see the "signature" Hawker style curved tail empannage and wing tips on the Phantom. 

As far as a "semi-French" Phantom, I imagine that de Gaulle would be spinning in his grave if he new that a Frenchman was even suggesting something this outrageous.  But the idea of using the ATAR on the F-4 airframe could lead to all sorts of fun such as:

Interceptor with the 2 X R-530 on the inboard wing pylons or a quartet of R-550 on the dual rail launcher adapters mated to the inboard wing pylons and a single R-530 on the centerline.  Later versions might be configured to carry the Super R-530 on small pallets where the AIM-7 Sparrow were carried.

Tactical bomber with some of those rocket/fuel tank stores on the outboard pylon (JL100?).  Carrying countermeasures pods for jamming in the forward Sparrow wells and chaff/flare dispensers in the rear Sparrow wells. 

Nuclear strike aircraft carrying the free fall AN-52 or the smaller tactical nuclear weapon (AN-?).  Later it would be upgraded to carry the ASMP. Again configured with the countermeasures pods in the Sparrow wells and a quartet of R-550 Magic missiles for self defense. 

Naval strike fighter/bomber configured to carry the Exocet and a variety of conventional weapons as well as the ASMP and AN-52/22 nuclear weapons. 

Reconnaissance aircraft carrying the usual battery of cameras and other sensors for Navale and AdA missions.  Secondary mission would be nuclear strike.

[elmayerle]

I have just read in a website http://wapedia.mobi/es/McDonnell_Douglas_F...ntom_II?p=6#3.2. (sorry, it is in spanish) that in 1963 MacDonnell offered RAAF Atar powered Phantoms.
Semi PHRENCH PHANTOMS  

this is actually what I plan for the Phantom GB, if it ever start one day

As long as it's an ATAR 9K50, it should be a reasonable replacement, though I do believe the ATAR is a bit longer than the J79 (by roughly two feet) and also has a greater maximum envelope diameter (depending on J79 variant, it's 1.4 to 2.2 inches) but definitely weighs less.  I suggest the 9K50 because it comes closest to matching the J79's performance.

HTH,
Evan

[Archibald]

As far as a "semi-French" Phantom, I imagine that de Gaulle would be spinning in his grave if he new that a Frenchman was even suggesting something this outrageous.

Marcel Dassault would spin, too       

You're perfectly right, alas... 

But the idea of using the ATAR on the F-4 airframe could lead to all sorts of fun such as:

Interceptor with the 2 X R-530 on the inboard wing pylons or a quartet of R-550 on the dual rail launcher adapters mated to the inboard wing pylons and a single R-530 on the centerline. Later versiosn might be configured to carry the Super R-530 on small pallets where the AIM-7 Sparrow were carried.

Tactical bomber with some of those rocket/fuel tank stores on the outboard pylon (JL100?). Carrying countermeasures pods for jamming in the forward Sparrow wells and chaff/flare dispensers in the rear Sparrow wells.

Nuclear strike aircraft carrying the free fall AN-52 or the smaller tactical nuclear weapon (AN-?). Later it would be upgraded to carry the ASMP. Again configured with the countermeasures pods in the Sparrow wells and a quartet of R-550 Magic missiles for self defense.

Naval strike fighter/bomber configured to carry the Exocet and a variety of conventional weapons as well as the ASMP and AN-52/22 nuclear weapons.

Reconnaissance aircraft carrying the usual battery of cameras and other sensors for Navale and AdA missions. Secondary mission would be nuclear strike.

Plenties of interesting ideas here    

Mine is to use the Phantom as CEV testbed, with Mirage noses and a nice dayglo paint sheme.

Atar, J-79 and Avon were rather similar in size, weight, and power. The Atar was slightly less powerfull than its counterparts.

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

And don't forget that the F-4 was evaluated by the French Navy but the F-8 was prefered, due to its ability to land and operate from a smaller carrier.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I had another inspirational moment yesterday while pondering how to acquire some 1/72nd scale engine exhaust parts from modern aircraft that could be used to reflect an engine upgrade on an F-4 and I suddenly realized that I had read recently that the TF-30 had been used to power one version of the A-7 (w/o reheat/afterburner, of course) but this brought up an idea for creating a TF-30 powered F-4 based on the F-4K and F-4M since it was already widened to accomodate the Rolls Royce Spey engines.  This wider fuselage could also be used to accomodate the TF-30 and to demonstrate the upgrade it would only require the exhaust parts from an F-14 or if you really want to stretch it, try using the parts from an F-111.    

[elmayerle]

I had another inspirational moment yesterday while pondering how to acquire some 1/72nd scale engine exhaust parts from modern aircraft that could be used to reflect an engine upgrade on an F-4 and I suddenly realized that I had read recently that the TF-30 had been used to power one version of the A-7 (w/o reheat/afterburner, of course) but this brought up an idea for creating a TF-30 powered F-4 based on the F-4K and F-4M since it was already widened to accomodate the Rolls Royce Spey engines.  This wider fuselage could also be used to accomodate the TF-30 and to demonstrate the upgrade it would only require the exhaust parts from an F-14 or if you really want to stretch it, try using the parts from an F-111.

I'll have to check references, but ISTR that the afterburning TF30 is a rather larger engine than the Spey 200R series fitted to the F4K/M, which are of smaller diameter than the TF41.  I do know that McDD studied TF30-powered F-4 variants, but they never proceded beyond the paper study stage.

I belive the difference in diameters between the Spey 200R series and the TF41 is a function of which Spey version each is derived from.  ISTR that the Spey 200 drives from an earlier version also known as the Spey Jr. while the TF41 derives from a later version of the Spey.

[Archibald]

Ummm would the "French F-4" have the gun nose of the "E" for the AdA, and the "Naval" "B/J" for Aeronaval??

I think all french phantoms would have been nose-gunned. Aeronavale aircrafts, too, had guns (I think about the Etendards, the Crusader is another story).

Don't know what kind of guns had the Israelis Phantoms.
Did they try to adapt the DEFA as they did on their Skyhawks ?  

Btw a M-53 powered Phantom would be cool, too.
Can't be worse than a Spey powered Phantom, and thrust is more or less the same...  

What about a scaled-up (25%?)  Phantom with J-58, J-75 or J-93 ?  

[dy031101]

I think all french phantoms would have been nose-gunned. Aeronavale aircrafts, too, had guns (I think about the Etendards, the Crusader is another story).

One has to take the question as to if an F-4 with the gun nose can be accommodated by the carrier's elevators into account.  RN F-4K had to have the nose folded back to fit on the elevator of the Ark Royal- don't know if the gun nose can be made to do the same.  What's the demention of the elevators on Clemenceau class carriers?

Didn't Aeronavale Crusaders have quad 20mm guns just like the rest of the Crusader family?

Don't know what kind of guns had the Israelis Phantoms.
Did they try to adapt the DEFA as they did on their Skyhawks ? 

As far as I'm awared of, IAF F-4Es have the same 20mm M61.

[elmayerle]

As a follow-up to my earlier comments on the TF30-powered Phantom, the TF30 was as much greater in envelope diameter than the Spey 20s series in the F-4K/M as that engine was over the J79 ('bout 5 inches more in each case.  Too, the shortest afterburning TF30 is still over two feet longer than the Spey 200.

Actually, I think Archibald's idea of a M53-powered derivative of the F-4K/M airframe makes sense, the dimensions are close to the Spey s0s as is the performance (M53-P2 is actually a bit better) and the M53 weights a bit less (on the order of 700lb., or more, less).