F-4 (F4H-1)(F-110) Phantom

[GTX]

Put tiltable exhausts on the existing(replaced?) engines something like this.

Or maybe aft nozzles like the F-35B (I watched a cool Lockheed movie of the first F-35B undergoing aft nossle transition during the week - seriously cool!)

I like the idea of removing the WSO  - definitely a good idea that as it also reduces some weight.

Regards,

Greg

[tinlail]

Or maybe aft nozzles like the F-35B (I watched a cool Lockheed movie of the first F-35B undergoing aft nossle transition during the week - seriously cool!)

Yes like that.
A f-4 can look at least some what balanced with the tail extending so far beyond the end of the engines. Of course the next trick is to stick the F135 engines in to a Phantom....

[GTX]

How's this for a first VTOL (or at least extreme STOL) F-4 with 2-4 dedicated lift engines behind the pilot:



Rear nozzles would also tilt downwards.

Regards,

Greg

[Spey_Phantom]

the G-version of the phantom was one of the best SEAD aircraft out there until they were retired in the 1990's.
but to me it was one of the best looking phantoms out there  .
but what if it had some export customers, from what i know, greece was interested in 30 to 40 ex-USAF aircraft back in 2000, but went for the F-16 block52 instead 

it would have some nice export sales, even secondhand 

Israel:
to cope with the new soviet-made SAM and radar air defence systems, Israel placed an order for 40 F-4G's in 1981. these were fitted with Israeli made ECM equipment, Python-2 AAM's, Shrike and AGM-88B HARM anti-radar missiles. during operations over Syria, F-4G's destroyed over 100 enemy SAMs and Radar instalations in less then 2 weeks. making the wild weasels an unmissable asset in the IDF/AF. in 1994, the 34 remaining F-4G's were upgraded with new avionics and even more advanced ECM gear. another even more intensive upgrade was integrated in 2004, the F-4G was fitted with a new Elbit AESA radar, new ALQ-131+ jammer pods, fully digital cockpit, Link16 datalinks and a new weapon, the AGM-88E AARGM misille to replace the earlier HARM's. the aircraft were new designated as F-4GI. the F-4GI is now expected to stay in service until 2020.

other export customers (witch i dont have a backstory for right now) would be:

-Greece
-Turkey
-Germany
-Spain
-RAF
-Brasil
-Mexico
-Argentina



(off topic: yes, reached post #1500, of to the 2000 mark  )

[Geoff]

I was reading that in 1963 McD tried to interest the RAAF in an Atar 9 engined version of the F-4C (model 98DX).
Does anyone have any info on this - my impression is that it was a paper proposal which got no further?
I expect after the fiasco of the Sabres it was a bit of a non-starter.

But Wif they had bought these as a bomber a decade or so before the F-111C?  Ok the "C" was a fighter and the "D" the bomber version of the F-4 I know.

Any thoughts?

(Sorry if this has been covered before I've missed it if it was!).

GeoffP.

[Archibald]

I had to answer this one 

They wannted a Phantom with Mirage engine, but this probably made it underpowered.
It didn't go very far, aside in my own alt-world.
There, the french build a prototype which was send to the ARDU for testing, and rejected because it was underpowered (Atar 9K really didn't matched J-79 power).
Thus the french flight test center, the CEV, took over the machine around 1967 and used to replace its Vautours. For 30 years it tested Mirage F1, Jaguar, Mirage III, Mirage 2000, and even Rafale radars and AAMs.
The Phantom proved so useful that the CEV obtained 3 more Phantoms, this time from the USN, in 1978.

Btw I've bought Revell F-4F, I have two Atar spare exhausts and CEV-Vautour photos from Airliner.net, but I've lost the will to build models 10 months ago   

Maybe if the 500 phantom group build starts one day...
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,15662.150.html

[Geoff]

Hi Archibald,
I suspect the extra costs for R+D along with the lack of extra performance if the Atar was no more powerful would have killed the project. The logistical advantages would not have been great enough on their own.
It might have led to the RAAF obtaining standard F-C's or D's in my alt-world.

[jcf]

An ATAR family doc that may be of use to some.

Jon

[Archibald]

Thank you.

9K7 was the one in the Mirage IV in the mid-60's. As you can see its thrust is way too low for a Phantom (J-79 ranged from 7700 to 8200 kgp)

The most powerful variant (in the F1 and Mirage 50) was rated at 7200 kgp. Still a bit too weak...

[GTX]

I was reading that in 1963 McD tried to interest the RAAF in an Atar 9 engined version of the F-4C (model 98DX).
Does anyone have any info on this - my impression is that it was a paper proposal which got no further?

Has anyone got any actual evidence of this?  This is the only place I've read this proposal and would like to read more if there is anything.

Regards,

Greg

[MAD]

I was reading that in 1963 McD tried to interest the RAAF in an Atar 9 engined version of the F-4C (model 98DX).


GeoffP.

Thank goodness the RAAF were smart enough not to have taken this offer up!
It would have been a lemon

M.A.D

[Geoff]

It was the opening sentence of the section on Australian Phantoms of the new SAM book on the F-4 Part 3.

"In March of 1963, McDonnell had tried to interest the Royal Australian Air Force in their proposed Model 98DX, a version of the F-4C to be powered by a pair of French built SNECMA Atar 9 turbojets. This engine was picked because it powerd the Dasault Mirage IIIO fighters that were already being flown by the RAAF,....."
Andy Evans, 2008, SAM Publications, The McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II, A comprhensive guide, Part 3: Overseas Operators, Page 6. (ISBN978-0-9551858-5-4)

GeoffP.

[GTX]

Thanks - given what I understand about the ATAR in RAAF service, its probably a damn good thing the RAAF didn't go with this proposal.  Mind you, it might make an interesting story/model.  Of course it could be interesting also if the RAAF decided to take up the offer, trialed it, wasn't impressed but still liked the Phantom, purchased a batch and then decided to re-engine their Mirages with J-79s for commonality thus pre-empting the Israeli's Kfir by about a decade   

Regards,

Greg

[Geoff]

Yep, the Aussi "Kifir" does seem a good idea, along with F-4C/D's in RAAF service a decade before the F-111C becomes available.
It seems that if the RAAF had bought the F-4E's they leased, there was a plan to sell RF-4E's to them as well as part of the package. It was the need for a tanker force for the Phantoms (KC-135's) that sank the deal due to the longer range of the -111.
Also not enough aircrew as it would have ment standing down a Mirage sqd to man them. I don't quite understand that last bit about the crews as the -111 also had 2 crew members. ??

[Geoff]

I did wonder about the cammo scheme if the RAAF had F-4C's; the delivery scheme in the early mid-sixties would be the Air Defence Grey over white the same as the USAF. But would they use the Green/Grey cammo the same as for the Mirages at that time, which would make them look a lot like RAF Phantoms. Or if the decision was taken later would they use the T.O.-114 SEA type cammo developed for the Vietnam war?


Mmm - OCD strikes!