Gloster Whirlwind Ii

[Archibald]

I've red some things about this Westland fighter recently. An excellent machine (as Petter others designs such as the Gnat, Lightning, Canberra, among others ),
It had a bubble top in 1940, good performances,it was incredibly agile for a
twin-engine fighter (it behaved quite well against 109s and Fw-190s).

what doomed it in the end was small but serious defects (no drop tanks, weak engines) which could not be corrected by Westland, which was a small firm.

Now, how could have evolved the Whirlwind ? I thought about it, and maybe the best opportunity could have been a Hawker Typhoon failure, for various reasons.

First, we need a bigger firm than Westland, to correct defaults and start mass production. In the case of a Typhoon failure, the name of Gloster seem obvious (the Typhoon filled the gap between the Gladiator and Meteor).

The Tornado was scrapped after engine failure, and the Typhoon barely escaped the same fate.

137 and 263 squadrons exchanged their Whirlwinds for Typhoons in 1943.

Maybe Gloster could have corrected Whirlwind defaults, particularly its weak engine ? Merlin I or II (up to 1200 hp) instead of Peregrine ?  Better guns ?
(Whirlwind guns had only 60 rounds / 10 second fire)

Could the plane have escorted Lancasters and Halifax in daylight missions ?

One can hack two Heller Spitfire I and graft their nose onto a Whirlwind kit ?

[B777LR]

Radar, Merlin, Cannons    

[Maverick]

Archi,

An upgraded Whirlwind is certainly a nice thought, Merlins are an obvious must.  As for daylight attacks, I still couldn't see the RAF attempting daylight ops.  Their bombers simply weren't up for that type of warfare IMO.  The .303 cal Brownings for instance and the comparitively small number of weapons carried would have spelt disaster against the Luftwaffe's Zerstorer units and Jagdfliegers.  Given that every German fighter or heavy fighter was equipped with multiple cannons as a standard, excepting the 109F, I guess, the chance of them just standing off and really playing havoc with the bombers would have been too great.

Mav

[elmayerle]

I've been playing with an enlarged "Whirlwind Mk.II" with Merlins and other provisions.  You definitely have to space the engines out farther to fit the Merlins with adequate prop tip clearance, but that's do-able.  I'm looking at combining an AIrfix Whirlwind kit with a Frog Hornet for my "Whirlwind MkII".

[Allan]

I for one have always liked the Whirlwind

Allan in Canberra

[Archibald]

I've been playing with an enlarged "Whirlwind Mk.II" with Merlins and other provisions.  You definitely have to space the engines out farther to fit the Merlins with adequate prop tip clearance, but that's do-able.  I'm looking at combining an AIrfix Whirlwind kit with a Frog Hornet for my "Whirlwind MkII".

Great minds think alike. I 've created the backstory for your model    

what I fear is weight growth, the Whirlwind was a very good machine, but fitting it with more powerfull engines could totally waste it... fortunatey this never happen in the marvellous world of whatifers    

I've just realised that the Whirlwind was not much bigger than a Hurricane. How did Petter achieved that !!!    

Considering the performances of the beast with the old Peregrine, I think it could rely on Merlin II (1200 hp) until the end of WWII. This machine didn't needed an enormous power to fly fast  

What about a Royal Navy variant (something to fit between the seafire, Fulmar and Sea Mosquito) ?  

[Archibald]

A folded-wing Whirlwind would look awesome  
I'm just trying to imagine it...

[Mossie]

Wasn't the Welkin largely a Merlin Whirlwind?  I know it was optimised for high altitude ops, but the new design could maybe have been adapted to medium level.  Lose the long wing & the pressurised cockpit.

I've just realised that the Whirlwind was not much bigger than a Hurricane. How did Petter achieved that !!!

Archie, part of the reason that the Whirlwind was so small for a twin engined aircraft was that it was tightly designed around the Peregrine engines.  This was a trademark of Petter's which he went on to do with the Lightning.  That led to it's downfall, when the Peregrine proved unreliable, it was very difficult to re-engine the Whirlwind as aircraft & powerplant were so well intergrated.  So I think the answer to the Whirlwind is not so much to re-design the aircraft, doing so would result in to many penalties.  More for Rolls, or someone else, to concentrate on the Peregrine, AW maybe?  But since the Merlin was proving much more reliable & capable of better performance than expected, it was this engine that was concentrated on which unfortunatley killed the Whirlwind.  Had it been the Merlin that had had suffered, other aircraft would probably have been easier to adapt to the Peregrine.

[NARSES2]

Our "Beloved Leader" has a whole series of Whirlwind developments in model form inc. a Sea Whirlwind  

Always liked the aircraft, and as Mossie says if they could have sorted the engine then the RAF would have had a very good medium/long range fighter in possibly 1940 ?

Chris

[Archibald]

Wasn't the Welkin largely a Merlin Whirlwind?  I know it was optimised for high altitude ops, but the new design could maybe have been adapted to medium level.  Lose the long wing & the pressurised cockpit.

I've just realised that the Whirlwind was not much bigger than a Hurricane. How did Petter achieved that !!!

Archie, part of the reason that the Whirlwind was so small for a twin engined aircraft was that it was tightly designed around the Peregrine engines.  This was a trademark of Petter's which he went on to do with the Lightning.  That led to it's downfall, when the Peregrine proved unreliable, it was very difficult to re-engine the Whirlwind as aircraft & powerplant were so well intergrated.  So I think the answer to the Whirlwind is not so much to re-design the aircraft, doing so would result in to many penalties.  More for Rolls, or someone else, to concentrate on the Peregrine, AW maybe?  But since the Merlin was proving much more reliable & capable of better performance than expected, it was this engine that was concentrated on which unfortunatley killed the Whirlwind.  Had it been the Merlin that had had suffered, other aircraft would probably have been easier to adapt to the Peregrine.

... and the Gnat, too, a reduced aircraft to say the least!! Thanks to you I've just understood Petter's philosophy...    Design the smallest and lightest aircraft around its engine...  

[ysi_maniac]

I think that the improved Merlin powered Whirlwind was, in fact, DH Hornet.

[Archibald]

The Hornet had Griffons, but I agree with what you said... in fat the Hornet was really a 1946- whirlwind    

[ysi_maniac]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_...28Hornet_F.3.29

Merlin powered

[Archibald]

Yups, I've red it just after posting  :dum:  

au fait, a Griffon Hornet would have been something    

[Mossie]

I think that the improved Merlin powered Whirlwind was, in fact, DH Hornet.

The Hornet took some of the lessons learned from the Whirlwind, but they were both from two different companies & two very different designs.  The Hornet was more closely related to the Mosquito & was basically a slimmed down version of that aircraft.

The Westland Welkin was a Merlin powered delvelopment of the Whirlwind designed to counter German high altitude bombers believed to be in development (they were, but were still-born).  When these bombers failed to materialise, the Welkin was abandond.  Like the Whirlwind, it was a basically a good design, there were problems with the wings though & in the end the high level bomber threat didn't materialise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Welkin

Maybe the Welkin could have formed the basis of a medium level fighter?  I think the reason it didn't, is that the two Merlins wouldn't have given that much advantage over the Spits & Hurri's.  The Pergrine was more slimline & made for a much more streamlined aircraft, if it had been substituted for the Merlin, the advantages would have been lost.

I hate to say it Archie, but I think the idea of an improved Whirlwind is going to be very diificult, unless you can work into your backstory a for the Pergrine to be successful (in which case it would probably have been preferred over the Merlin for many aircraft), or find another slimline engine of similar power.