Gloster Whirlwind Ii

[Archibald]

I more or less knew that before posting, I've red Le Fana de l'Aviation article which basically mention whirlind limitations you noticed    

This idea would be more an interesting modelling subject than a viable real-world aircraft  

[Mossie]

Go for it Archie, nothing wrong with building on a 'What the hell' basis!  Also, many aircraft entered service with mis-matched or underpowered engines for reasons that baffle us now, this would give a very 'real' edge to the build.

[ysi_maniac]

a Griffon Hornet would have been something  

A winner    

[jcf]

Not so fast boys,
the Peregrine(a developed Kestrel BTW) and the single-stage Merlin are actually very similar in
overall dimensions, the weight difference is where you could encounter problems:

Peregrine:
Length 73.6"; width 27.1"; height 41.0"; weight 1,140 lbs.
Displacement 1,296 cu in.

Merlin (single-speed supercharger):
Length 69"; width 29.8"; height 41.2"; weight 1,375 lbs.
Displacement 1,637 cu in.

Merlin (two-speed supercharger):
Length 71"; width 29.8"; height 43.0"; weight 1,450 lbs.
Displacement 1,637 cu in.

Cheers, Jon

[Archibald]

Not so fast boys,
the Peregrine(a developed Kestrel BTW) and the single-stage Merlin are actually very similar in
overall dimensions, the weight difference is where you could encounter problems:

Peregrine:
Length 73.6"; width 27.1"; height 41.0"; weight 1,140 lbs.
Displacement 1,296 cu in.

Merlin (single-speed supercharger):
Length 69"; width 29.8"; height 41.2"; weight 1,375 lbs.
Displacement 1,637 cu in.

Merlin (two-speed supercharger):
Length 71"; width 29.8"; height 43.0"; weight 1,450 lbs.
Displacement 1,637 cu in.

Cheers, Jon

Thanks for the info John. Merlin-powered Whirlwind is now definitevely a pure modelling/ whatiffer dream, rather than a realistic, real-world option.  

building such model wouldn't be too difficult, Heller has a cheap Spitfire I, probably not too difficult to butcher, cut the engines in the area of the cockpit, et voila...

The method could also be sued for the Griffon Hornet, cut two Spitfire XIV or 22's nose and graft them onto a Hornet kit...

[jcf]

Not so fast boys,
the Peregrine(a developed Kestrel BTW) and the single-stage Merlin are actually very similar in
overall dimensions, the weight difference is where you could encounter problems:

Peregrine:
Length 73.6"; width 27.1"; height 41.0"; weight 1,140 lbs.
Displacement 1,296 cu in.

Merlin (single-speed supercharger):
Length 69"; width 29.8"; height 41.2"; weight 1,375 lbs.
Displacement 1,637 cu in.

Merlin (two-speed supercharger):
Length 71"; width 29.8"; height 43.0"; weight 1,450 lbs.
Displacement 1,637 cu in.

Cheers, Jon

Thanks for the info John. Merlin-powered Whirlwind is now definitevely a pure modelling/ whatiffer dream, rather than a realistic, real-world option.  

building such model wouldn't be too difficult, Heller has a cheap Spitfire I, probably not too difficult to butcher, cut the engines in the area of the cockpit, et voila...

The method could also be sued for the Griffon Hornet, cut two Spitfire XIV or 22's nose and graft them onto a Hornet kit...

Why not go the whole hog?

Put the Hornet nacelle fronts on a stretched Whirlwind, the Griffon Spitfire noses on the Hornet and the Whirlwind nacelle fronts on the Spitfires. Oh yeah use one of the high-backed and one of the bubble-topped Griffon Spitfires so you can get two different Peregrine powered Spitfires.

No waste.  

Cheers, Jon

[Archibald]

Tout a fait!!    

[XV107]

Actually... It's not so hard to imagine advanced Whirlwinds...

First, it needs Fighter Command to recognise the potential of the aircraft. Dowding had (in real life) recommended that no further Whirlwinds be built in late October 1940, shortly before he was removed as AOC-in-C Fighter Command.

Despite a range of problems, 263 Sqn had enthused about the type to higher authority, but were disbelieved. Let's imagine for a moment that the new AOC-in-C (Sholto Douglas) upon his appointment decides to try out all the aircraft types under his command. He's not going to throw the aircraft about, since he's a bit rusty, but upon flying the Whirlwind, he decides that it's his staff who don't know what they're on about and becomes a firm supporter of the type. He's partly influenced by the thought that the firepower of the type, coupled with its range and high speed at low level makes it ideal for his intended policy of 'leaning into France' as Fighter Command goes on the offensive.

He is, though,  infurated with Westland's inability to deal with faults, and after an unsatisfactory response to his letter complaining to Westland about this (this letter , BTW, isn't a whif, but was actually sent in late Nov 1940, complaining that Westland were busy building Lysanders 'which nobody wants' instead of producing Whirlwinds, 'which are wanted badly), Douglas loses patience.

He appeals direct to Churchill, drawing upon a suggestion from 263 Squadron that the Whirlwind would be a perfect aircraft for intruder operations against German bomber bases in France (remember this is during the Blitz), and Westland's intransigence is preventing him from attempting to combat the bombers. Despite claims that the Whirlwind will be too dangerous to operate at night, Douglas recalls that the same was said of the Sopwith Camel in WW1, and that this proved to be quite untrue. Also, there is a desperate need to hit back at the Germans, and in brutally simple terms, losing Whirlwinds in landing accidents on return to base is an acceptable price to pay for harrassing the German bombers at their home bases.

Churchill is outraged and when presented with evidence of Westland's apparently insouciant attitude, uses wartime power  to order that production be handed over to Hawker. Since Hawker have their hands full, production is delegated to Gloster. The first thing that Gloster do is to carry out a field upgrade, with belt-fed cannon, an idea that has been around (again, this is real life, not whif) since Spring 1940. This involves changing the cannon arrangement so that all four are in a horizontal line (think of the Mosquito's 4 x.303 nose), but doubles ammo capacity. All the aircraft are re-fitted by the end of January 1941.

However, there is an enormous problem. This is, of course, the fact that RR Peregrine production is to cease within weeks of the new production arrangement. There are two alternatives.

The first is to overturn the decision to stop Peregrine production and to get Rolls to sort out the problems, or to hand the design over to another company that can do this.

The second is to fit new engines. In his letter ending production of the Whirlwind, Dowding had mentioned a proposal to fit American engines (let your imagination run here - Allison V1750s perhaps?), so Douglas might have gone down that route.

However, let's combine the possibilities... The Packard company had already signed an agreement to produce the Merlin (September 1940), so in our whif, the firm is asked whether they would be prepared to build Peregrines. Also, would they be prepared to refine and improve the engine so that it's more reliable?

The Air Ministry are not hopeful, and Rolls Royce are openly sceptical, but Packard - fitting the stereotype of the American 'can do' attitude to war production - see no problem in this regard. When the first engines are handed over, Rolls Royce, strip a couple of US-built Merlins and a couple of Peregrines to discover where American engineering has fallen down.

To their surprise, they discover that it hasn't. Not only are there no quality issues, in some regards, the engines are better made (again, this is real  - as far as the Merlin goes). They are even more astounded when they discover that Packard have managed to build a reliable Peregrine.

The Packard Peregrine emerges as a result of Packard throwing a lot of engineering expertise at the problem. Using a Whirlwind airframe that has been shipped to the US, the American engineering team, working round the clock, makes alterations to the cooling system and sorts out almost all of the bugbears the engine has suffered from. They even go so far as to propose an uprated version that, while less powerful than the Merlin, will not raise structural issues for the Whirlwind. All that is required is a four bladed prop to absorb the extra output efficiently. This is accepted, and starts coming off the production line in January 1942.

These developments transform the Whirlwind. Intial operations have to rely upon Whirlwinds using RR produced Peregrines (RR continuing low-rate production until summer 1941). From summer 1941, Gloster's output of Whirlwinds takes off considerably, at the point where the Packard Peregrine is ready for service use. The Whirlwind IIa is a different beast to the Mk 1.

With the four horizontally mounted cannon with 120 rpg, the aircraft has considerable firepower, bolstered by the fitment of underwing bombs. The intruder missions prove to be a great success, with the black-painted aircraft of 23 Squadron being most prominent in attacks on German bomber airfields. The speed with which the Whirlwind can conduct a low level (and thus accurate) attack gives the Germans little chance of dealing with the threat, and the Whirlwind becomes highly feared. This success is achieved for a very small loss rate, with the incidence of landing accidents being extremely small, contrary to intial Air Ministry expectations.

The ability to fit two drop tanks inboard of the engines is conferred on the aircraft from October 1941, adding to its ability to range across occupied Europe.

Futhermore, while the Mk I and Mk IIa are best at lower level, where they are a match for the most up-to-date German fighters, the arrival of the improved Peregrines from January 1942 and their fitment into the Mk IIb Whirlwind gives the aircraft the ability to compete effectively at altitudes up to 21,000 feet. Above this height, the aircraft struggles to deal with the Fw190, but the Whirlwind squadrons deal with this matter by the simple expedient of refusing to fly above 15,000 feet. Also, the extra power gives the aircraft the ability to carry up to 1,500lb of bombs, although it struggles with more than 1,000lb aboard.

The Whirlwind, after coming extremely close to cancellation, proves to be one of the most successful types of the war.  Production moves increasingly to Armstrong Whitworth from early 1943, as Gloster ramps up production of the Typhoon. By June 1944, 2TAF is equipped with both Whirlwinds and Typhoons, both fitted with the ability to utilise rocket projectiles, although it is accepted that the Typhoon is the better rocket launching platform; 2TAFs Whirlwinds continue to fly high-speed low level bombing missions with considerable accuracy.

The last of the Whirlwinds leaves the AW production line in October 1943, after 2,317 have been produced; by May 1945, only two squadrons are still equipped with the type, and it leaves service a few years later. Most are scrapped, but in 1967, the RAF museum managed to locate one hidden in a barn on a farm outside Coventry, and it is now on display at.... Ah. I don't think we can even manage to imagine that in a whif.


But it is possible - it just requires a slight alteration in attitude at Fighter Command, and things can flow from there.

[elmayerle]

Just a thought for the uprated version, new connecting rods with a design similar to the connecting rods on the Allison V1710 (a design preferred today by Merlin rebuilders).  A much more sturdy design.

I like this approach, it seems easily plausible, requiring only a few changes from OTL.

[Archibald]

Actually... It's not so hard to imagine advanced Whirlwinds...

First, it needs Fighter Command to recognise the potential of the aircraft. Dowding had (in real life) recommended that no further Whirlwinds be built in late October 1940, shortly before he was removed as AOC-in-C Fighter Command.

Despite a range of problems, 263 Sqn had enthused about the type to higher authority, but were disbelieved. Let's imagine for a moment that the new AOC-in-C (Sholto Douglas) upon his appointment decides to try out all the aircraft types under his command. He's not going to throw the aircraft about, since he's a bit rusty, but upon flying the Whirlwind, he decides that it's his staff who don't know what they're on about and becomes a firm supporter of the type. He's partly influenced by the thought that the firepower of the type, coupled with its range and high speed at low level makes it ideal for his intended policy of 'leaning into France' as Fighter Command goes on the offensive.

He is, though,  infurated with Westland's inability to deal with faults, and after an unsatisfactory response to his letter complaining to Westland about this (this letter , BTW, isn't a whif, but was actually sent in late Nov 1940, complaining that Westland were busy building Lysanders 'which nobody wants' instead of producing Whirlwinds, 'which are wanted badly), Douglas loses patience.

He appeals direct to Churchill, drawing upon a suggestion from 263 Squadron that the Whirlwind would be a perfect aircraft for intruder operations against German bomber bases in France (remember this is during the Blitz), and Westland's intransigence is preventing him from attempting to combat the bombers. Despite claims that the Whirlwind will be too dangerous to operate at night, Douglas recalls that the same was said of the Sopwith Camel in WW1, and that this proved to be quite untrue. Also, there is a desperate need to hit back at the Germans, and in brutally simple terms, losing Whirlwinds in landing accidents on return to base is an acceptable price to pay for harrassing the German bombers at their home bases.

Churchill is outraged and when presented with evidence of Westland's apparently insouciant attitude, uses wartime power  to order that production be handed over to Hawker. Since Hawker have their hands full, production is delegated to Gloster. The first thing that Gloster do is to carry out a field upgrade, with belt-fed cannon, an idea that has been around (again, this is real life, not whif) since Spring 1940. This involves changing the cannon arrangement so that all four are in a horizontal line (think of the Mosquito's 4 x.303 nose), but doubles ammo capacity. All the aircraft are re-fitted by the end of January 1941.

However, there is an enormous problem. This is, of course, the fact that RR Peregrine production is to cease within weeks of the new production arrangement. There are two alternatives.

The first is to overturn the decision to stop Peregrine production and to get Rolls to sort out the problems, or to hand the design over to another company that can do this.

The second is to fit new engines. In his letter ending production of the Whirlwind, Dowding had mentioned a proposal to fit American engines (let your imagination run here - Allison V1750s perhaps?), so Douglas might have gone down that route.

However, let's combine the possibilities... The Packard company had already signed an agreement to produce the Merlin (September 1940), so in our whif, the firm is asked whether they would be prepared to build Peregrines. Also, would they be prepared to refine and improve the engine so that it's more reliable?

The Air Ministry are not hopeful, and Rolls Royce are openly sceptical, but Packard - fitting the stereotype of the American 'can do' attitude to war production - see no problem in this regard. When the first engines are handed over, Rolls Royce, strip a couple of US-built Merlins and a couple of Peregrines to discover where American engineering has fallen down.

To their surprise, they discover that it hasn't. Not only are there no quality issues, in some regards, the engines are better made (again, this is real  - as far as the Merlin goes). They are even more astounded when they discover that Packard have managed to build a reliable Peregrine.

The Packard Peregrine emerges as a result of Packard throwing a lot of engineering expertise at the problem. Using a Whirlwind airframe that has been shipped to the US, the American engineering team, working round the clock, makes alterations to the cooling system and sorts out almost all of the bugbears the engine has suffered from. They even go so far as to propose an uprated version that, while less powerful than the Merlin, will not raise structural issues for the Whirlwind. All that is required is a four bladed prop to absorb the extra output efficiently. This is accepted, and starts coming off the production line in January 1942.

These developments transform the Whirlwind. Intial operations have to rely upon Whirlwinds using RR produced Peregrines (RR continuing low-rate production until summer 1941). From summer 1941, Gloster's output of Whirlwinds takes off considerably, at the point where the Packard Peregrine is ready for service use. The Whirlwind IIa is a different beast to the Mk 1.

With the four horizontally mounted cannon with 120 rpg, the aircraft has considerable firepower, bolstered by the fitment of underwing bombs. The intruder missions prove to be a great success, with the black-painted aircraft of 23 Squadron being most prominent in attacks on German bomber airfields. The speed with which the Whirlwind can conduct a low level (and thus accurate) attack gives the Germans little chance of dealing with the threat, and the Whirlwind becomes highly feared. This success is achieved for a very small loss rate, with the incidence of landing accidents being extremely small, contrary to intial Air Ministry expectations.

The ability to fit two drop tanks inboard of the engines is conferred on the aircraft from October 1941, adding to its ability to range across occupied Europe.

Futhermore, while the Mk I and Mk IIa are best at lower level, where they are a match for the most up-to-date German fighters, the arrival of the improved Peregrines from January 1942 and their fitment into the Mk IIb Whirlwind gives the aircraft the ability to compete effectively at altitudes up to 21,000 feet. Above this height, the aircraft struggles to deal with the Fw190, but the Whirlwind squadrons deal with this matter by the simple expedient of refusing to fly above 15,000 feet. Also, the extra power gives the aircraft the ability to carry up to 1,500lb of bombs, although it struggles with more than 1,000lb aboard.

The Whirlwind, after coming extremely close to cancellation, proves to be one of the most successful types of the war.  Production moves increasingly to Armstrong Whitworth from early 1943, as Gloster ramps up production of the Typhoon. By June 1944, 2TAF is equipped with both Whirlwinds and Typhoons, both fitted with the ability to utilise rocket projectiles, although it is accepted that the Typhoon is the better rocket launching platform; 2TAFs Whirlwinds continue to fly high-speed low level bombing missions with considerable accuracy.

The last of the Whirlwinds leaves the AW production line in October 1943, after 2,317 have been produced; by May 1945, only two squadrons are still equipped with the type, and it leaves service a few years later. Most are scrapped, but in 1967, the RAF museum managed to locate one hidden in a barn on a farm outside Coventry, and it is now on display at.... Ah. I don't think we can even manage to imagine that in a whif.


But it is possible - it just requires a slight alteration in attitude at Fighter Command, and things can flow from there.

Brilliant!!    

[Archibald]

Our "Beloved Leader" has a whole series of Whirlwind developments in model form inc. a Sea Whirlwind  

Always liked the aircraft, and as Mossie says if they could have sorted the engine then the RAF would have had a very good medium/long range fighter in possibly 1940 ?

Chris

I suppose you mean Martin H ? We want pics!!!  

[TsrJoe]

there was a design for a twin jet whirlwind development...

imagine two lengthened Meteor type nacelles grafted onto the standard airframe and mounted quite far ahead of the leading edge...different...!!?

needless to say this seems just to have been a conceptual study, the only surviving information on which being a company drawn sketch showing its configuration

 

[Mossie]

Found a pic on the web from Telford, I think this is your model Joe?

...and a jet-powered Whirlwind. Oh just think about the CofG!

Original link:
http://www.modelairplaneinternational.com/...reviews/006.htm

[Archibald]

Just thought that a RR Dart Whirlwind would look cool    

[brewerjerry]

Actually... It's not so hard to imagine advanced Whirlwinds...

First, it needs Fighter Command to recognise the potential of the aircraft. Dowding had (in real life) recommended that no further Whirlwinds be built in late October 1940, shortly before he was removed as AOC-in-C Fighter Command.

Despite a range of problems, 263 Sqn had enthused about the type to higher authority, but were disbelieved. Let's imagine for a moment that the new AOC-in-C (Sholto Douglas) upon his appointment decides to try out all the aircraft types under his command. He's not going to throw the aircraft about, since he's a bit rusty, but upon flying the Whirlwind, he decides that it's his staff who don't know what they're on about and becomes a firm supporter of the type. He's partly influenced by the thought that the firepower of the type, coupled with its range and high speed at low level makes it ideal for his intended policy of 'leaning into France' as Fighter Command goes on the offensive.

He is, though,  infurated with Westland's inability to deal with faults, and after an unsatisfactory response to his letter complaining to Westland about this (this letter , BTW, isn't a whif, but was actually sent in late Nov 1940, complaining that Westland were busy building Lysanders 'which nobody wants' instead of producing Whirlwinds, 'which are wanted badly), Douglas loses patience.

He appeals direct to Churchill, drawing upon a suggestion from 263 Squadron that the Whirlwind would be a perfect aircraft for intruder operations against German bomber bases in France (remember this is during the Blitz), and Westland's intransigence is preventing him from attempting to combat the bombers. Despite claims that the Whirlwind will be too dangerous to operate at night, Douglas recalls that the same was said of the Sopwith Camel in WW1, and that this proved to be quite untrue. Also, there is a desperate need to hit back at the Germans, and in brutally simple terms, losing Whirlwinds in landing accidents on return to base is an acceptable price to pay for harrassing the German bombers at their home bases.

Churchill is outraged and when presented with evidence of Westland's apparently insouciant attitude, uses wartime power  to order that production be handed over to Hawker. Since Hawker have their hands full, production is delegated to Gloster. The first thing that Gloster do is to carry out a field upgrade, with belt-fed cannon, an idea that has been around (again, this is real life, not whif) since Spring 1940. This involves changing the cannon arrangement so that all four are in a horizontal line (think of the Mosquito's 4 x.303 nose), but doubles ammo capacity. All the aircraft are re-fitted by the end of January 1941.

However, there is an enormous problem. This is, of course, the fact that RR Peregrine production is to cease within weeks of the new production arrangement. There are two alternatives.

The first is to overturn the decision to stop Peregrine production and to get Rolls to sort out the problems, or to hand the design over to another company that can do this.

The second is to fit new engines. In his letter ending production of the Whirlwind, Dowding had mentioned a proposal to fit American engines (let your imagination run here - Allison V1750s perhaps?), so Douglas might have gone down that route.

However, let's combine the possibilities... The Packard company had already signed an agreement to produce the Merlin (September 1940), so in our whif, the firm is asked whether they would be prepared to build Peregrines. Also, would they be prepared to refine and improve the engine so that it's more reliable?

The Air Ministry are not hopeful, and Rolls Royce are openly sceptical, but Packard - fitting the stereotype of the American 'can do' attitude to war production - see no problem in this regard. When the first engines are handed over, Rolls Royce, strip a couple of US-built Merlins and a couple of Peregrines to discover where American engineering has fallen down.

To their surprise, they discover that it hasn't. Not only are there no quality issues, in some regards, the engines are better made (again, this is real  - as far as the Merlin goes). They are even more astounded when they discover that Packard have managed to build a reliable Peregrine.

The Packard Peregrine emerges as a result of Packard throwing a lot of engineering expertise at the problem. Using a Whirlwind airframe that has been shipped to the US, the American engineering team, working round the clock, makes alterations to the cooling system and sorts out almost all of the bugbears the engine has suffered from. They even go so far as to propose an uprated version that, while less powerful than the Merlin, will not raise structural issues for the Whirlwind. All that is required is a four bladed prop to absorb the extra output efficiently. This is accepted, and starts coming off the production line in January 1942.

These developments transform the Whirlwind. Intial operations have to rely upon Whirlwinds using RR produced Peregrines (RR continuing low-rate production until summer 1941). From summer 1941, Gloster's output of Whirlwinds takes off considerably, at the point where the Packard Peregrine is ready for service use. The Whirlwind IIa is a different beast to the Mk 1.

With the four horizontally mounted cannon with 120 rpg, the aircraft has considerable firepower, bolstered by the fitment of underwing bombs. The intruder missions prove to be a great success, with the black-painted aircraft of 23 Squadron being most prominent in attacks on German bomber airfields. The speed with which the Whirlwind can conduct a low level (and thus accurate) attack gives the Germans little chance of dealing with the threat, and the Whirlwind becomes highly feared. This success is achieved for a very small loss rate, with the incidence of landing accidents being extremely small, contrary to intial Air Ministry expectations.

The ability to fit two drop tanks inboard of the engines is conferred on the aircraft from October 1941, adding to its ability to range across occupied Europe.

Futhermore, while the Mk I and Mk IIa are best at lower level, where they are a match for the most up-to-date German fighters, the arrival of the improved Peregrines from January 1942 and their fitment into the Mk IIb Whirlwind gives the aircraft the ability to compete effectively at altitudes up to 21,000 feet. Above this height, the aircraft struggles to deal with the Fw190, but the Whirlwind squadrons deal with this matter by the simple expedient of refusing to fly above 15,000 feet. Also, the extra power gives the aircraft the ability to carry up to 1,500lb of bombs, although it struggles with more than 1,000lb aboard.

The Whirlwind, after coming extremely close to cancellation, proves to be one of the most successful types of the war.  Production moves increasingly to Armstrong Whitworth from early 1943, as Gloster ramps up production of the Typhoon. By June 1944, 2TAF is equipped with both Whirlwinds and Typhoons, both fitted with the ability to utilise rocket projectiles, although it is accepted that the Typhoon is the better rocket launching platform; 2TAFs Whirlwinds continue to fly high-speed low level bombing missions with considerable accuracy.

The last of the Whirlwinds leaves the AW production line in October 1943, after 2,317 have been produced; by May 1945, only two squadrons are still equipped with the type, and it leaves service a few years later. Most are scrapped, but in 1967, the RAF museum managed to locate one hidden in a barn on a farm outside Coventry, and it is now on display at.... Ah. I don't think we can even manage to imagine that in a whif.


But it is possible - it just requires a slight alteration in attitude at Fighter Command, and things can flow from there.

Hi
   Pretty good althought the first alternative engines after the bristol radial suggestion was supposedly Allison V1710's, as westland were working on tomahawks at the time   
   The Jan 42 letter offered the whirlwind with merlin XX, as westlands had solved the undercarriage retraction problems.
   Another what if is P6994 went to the USA for the US navy, a what if would be a grumman skyrocket replacement ? a whirlwind with a tail hook.
   The other great what if is the PR whirlwind, apparently dropped in favour of the spitfire, (but apparently one, or the nose cone may have been built)
   And the RAF were offered a complete cockpit of a whirlwind in the 70's by a RN engineering college, but said no thanks, it was subsequently burnt.
    great thread
      Cheers
        jerry