General Dynamics Type 200

[Archibald]

All started with Zumwalt idea of the Sea Control Ship. These ships had no catapults, so the air group of the USS Guam "interim SCS" was composed of
AV-8A and choppers.

But future SCS were to have true supersonic V/STOL interceptors. Result of all this was the Rockwell XVF-12 (which never worked, Elmayerle will explain you why   ) and the SCS concept resurected in Spain, GB and Italy...with Harriers as interceptors.

There was a backup in the case the Rockwell project wouldn't worked, it was the General dynamics 200. This one was really a US Yak-41 Freestyle, having two lift jets behind the cockpit and a big turbofan with tilting exhaust on the rear.
Despite Rockwell failure the GD design was never build, simply because the SCS was scrapped even before the XVF-12 was build...  

Thanks to the secret projects board I've now a 3-view of the Genral Dynamics project. Look at this, it is  very, very similar to a Grippen in overall shape and dimensions... so similar that I'm really tempted to build one using bits of the JSF left by the Mako (NOTHING GET LOSE in modelism)

A bit of whatif now.

supposing that the General dynamics 200 had been chosen over the Rockwell "gas plant" , 2 prototypes would have been built, in a timeframe probably similar to the XVF-12 ( 1973 - 1977).
So in the late 70's there would have been a viable V/STOL supersonic fighter, in prototype form... See what I mean ? Would USMC, RN, Armada and Italian Navy stay with AV-8B / Sea Harriers interceptors in this case ?
20 000 / 25 000 tons ships with GD type 200, Harrier and helos air group ? add to that Canadair CL-84...    









And... a Gripen 3-view for comparison.


For info, a CTOL variant of the type 200 (dubbed 218) was also proposed in the
F-18 competition.

[Thorvic]

Hi Archie

You notice how the artist impressions don't quite match the 3 view nor do they show exactly how the jet pipe worked (infuriating aint they !!!! ). You can see where the Yak 141 was inspired from however .

As for a kit the gripen is not soo good the blended wing to fuselage makes it pretty useless for this job. Actually a Mirage III/2000 might do the trick better as the wings are similar and the back ends pretty good for the shape. obviously the intakes need to be revised Tornado/cut down F-14 and blended into the fuselage.
For the Fwd fuselage look at filling in the Mirage cockpit and raising it up as was done on the harrier to create the Sea Harrier.

The lift fans could be robbed from a Yak-38 kit (preferably Hobbycraft or its clones due to it being a crap kit and way too wide - the Revell kit being much nicer and thus better built out the box). For the jet pipe look at the Anigrand Yak-141 i suspect this was the method for the 200 as the X-35 one is too big (you can see the photo of the part on teh anigrand website and i'm sure one of the lads will photograph the parts for you from thier stasg kits).

Cant you tell that this one has been discussed over the years but nobody actually got round to building it  

Cheers

Geoff

[Zen]

I suspect thats not a vectoring nozzle at the back end, more likely its switch in deflectors in the jetpipe diverting the flow to second nozzle or nozzles.

Not that bad an idea, though you still have the issues of hot gas reingestion. But it would work.

[Archibald]

Hi Archie

You notice how the artist impressions don't quite match the 3 view nor do they show exactly how the jet pipe worked (infuriating aint they !!!! ). You can see where the Yak 141 was inspired from however .

As for a kit the gripen is not soo good the blended wing to fuselage makes it pretty useless for this job. Actually a Mirage III/2000 might do the trick better as the wings are similar and the back ends pretty good for the shape. obviously the intakes need to be revised Tornado/cut down F-14 and blended into the fuselage.
For the Fwd fuselage look at filling in the Mirage cockpit and raising it up as was done on the harrier to create the Sea Harrier.

The lift fans could be robbed from a Yak-38 kit (preferably Hobbycraft or its clones due to it being a crap kit and way too wide - the Revell kit being much nicer and thus better built out the box). For the jet pipe look at the Anigrand Yak-141 i suspect this was the method for the 200 as the X-35 one is too big (you can see the photo of the part on teh anigrand website and i'm sure one of the lads will photograph the parts for you from thier stasg kits).

Cant you tell that this one has been discussed over the years but nobody actually got round to building it 

Cheers

Geoff

Wow! Thank you for the input!    

And the canopy, too, remind me of an AV-8B, surely not a coincidence (not only in modelism that nothing is lost!)

Lift jets seem to work only when they are complemented by a rear nozzle    
We all know that hot gases reingestions problems are avoided with a nice STOL take off (they are less a problem at landing, the plane being lighter).

Nozzel in action

To be honest I prefer the 3-view wings and canards...

And the Hobbycraft Forger is uttershite to say the least    
It actually has a rectangular canopy  

[Thorvic]

1/72 Drawing to scale

Model length is 21.52 cm, wing span is shorter than listed on SP due to having sidwider rails instead of wing tips.

G

[Archibald]

Thank you!  

[Glenn Gilbertson]

Thanks for sharing the drawings. Oh dear, another project, so little time!
 

[Archibald]

I suspect thats not a vectoring nozzle at the back end, more likely its switch in deflectors in the jetpipe diverting the flow to second nozzle or nozzles.

Not that bad an idea, though you still have the issues of hot gas reingestion. But it would work.

Yes it has a vectoring nozzle (a bit similar to the F-35 system).
It figure on another pic at the secret projects board (I also have this pic in color)

[Archibald]

Nozzel in action

Hmm I don't remember having written this sentence before...    
But my pics is better than your, I have the color variant (merci Le Fana de l'aviation)

I've found the rear end of a Mirage 2000 and some others goodies in the spare box...  

[dy031101]

What's the weapons fit?

The best I could find is that it carries internally a M-197 20mm gatling gun, and disposable stores include two AIM-7 Sparrows and two AIM-9 Sidewinder.

[elmayerle]

I can still see the AV-8B getting built for attack and rough-field basing.  All those hot jets are going to play hell with anything but a prepared surface (as the Yak vstol fighters have demonstrated).  I can see this one being used as a shipboard aircraft, though.

I can't see much more than the shown armament being carried for a vertical takeoff.  A rolling short takeoff or a conventional takeoff would allow rather more stores, I'd guess at a stores fit similar to that of a F-16, 'cept perhaps nothing on the centerline due to hot gas impingement concerns.

[Archibald]

I can still see the AV-8B getting built for attack and rough-field basing.  All those hot jets are going to play hell with anything but a prepared surface (as the Yak vstol fighters have demonstrated).  I can see this one being used as a shipboard aircraft, though.

I can't see much more than the shown armament being carried for a vertical takeoff.  A rolling short takeoff or a conventional takeoff would allow rather more stores, I'd guess at a stores fit similar to that of a F-16, 'cept perhaps nothing on the centerline due to hot gas impingement concerns.

I remembered a pic (in Le Fana) of the Balzac V taking off, you can see  trees around  shaked and stormed...  
Well, that was eight lift-jets...  Seems that the main advantage of the F-35 system lies here, this big fan only produce cold air, less damaging for the ground below. The cold air also blow away hot gases from the exhaust, and a consequence there's less hot gases reingestion problems...  

[elmayerle]

Actually, the cold flow from the lift fan effectively creates a pressure "wall" that prevents the exhaust gases from moving forward and recirculating.  I've seen pictures of hover flight and simulations that show this.  I'm not sure if this was planned or if it was serendipitous, but no one is complaining.

[Thorvic]

Yeap these were intended more as VTOL Fighter aircraft to operate from the smaller ASW Escort carriers as using a supercarrier on convoy duty is a tad wasteful of that resource. I suppose they would also have been assigned to the Marines to act as top cover for the Harriers instead of the Hornets.

Just a shame they blew all the money on the stupid Rockwell concept rather than taking the next step in VTOL or at least test the Harrier concept with thier own Sea Harrier/AV-16.

BTW anybody notice in the backgraoun of the artwork there appears to be a version of the CL-84 !!!

(The USN was intended as an operator of the AV-16 as well as the USMC - The USN also considered a small number of AV-8A's to act as point defence fighters when the carriers were alongside and unable to launch their CTOL aircraft).

G

[Archibald]

CL-84 was tested onboard USS Guam "interim SCS" and was aparently considered for SCS.

Hmm just imagine that they build two prototypes of the GD 200 (two XVF-12 were planned at the beginning, but rising cost led to cancellation of 2nd aircraft).
SCS program cancelled in 1974 (as in OTL)
BUT
the General Dynamics  aircraft works well... so a question arise, what to do with the first two viable supersonic V/STOL fighter prototypes ??!!!!

Giving them to GB for the Royal Navy ? can you imagine this bird in SHAR colors on Invincible flight deck ?  Shooting down Mirage IIIE over Falklands ?

Guys, what do you think about this concept ?

Imagine a ship more or less similar to the current Spanish BPE or Cavour
(Ie more or less 25 000 tons). Airgroup 25-30 aircrafts, as follow

- CL-84 for COD and AEW (yes, there had been an AEW variant of the CL-84, there's a pic at the secret projects board    This one had a radar dish )
Would it possible to graft a Sea King AEW radome onto a CL-84 ?  

- Sea Cheyenne for CAS
(I couldn't resist!)

- Harrier for ground attack and secondary air defense role

- General Dynamics 200 (this one need a better name... any idea ?) for air superiority

4 or 5 of these dedicated ships could back LPAs and LPHs. Even better, having a dedicated ship to home ground attack and air superiority aircrafts would free space on baord LPA and LPHs... they could carry more helicopters, troops and amphibious vehicles.

and the idea of USMC light carriers sounds cool...