AVRO CF-105 Arrow WHIF

[ysi_maniac]

Cool designs! B)    B)    

[kitnut617]

Well, the attached gives some idea of what the ramjet additions would entail.  I'll post a second pic that shows a view from the rear.  i've seen the drawings for the ramjet pods and there's a load path from where the gear attaches to the pod (it retracts into the pod) up through the pylon into where the MLG on the early versions attaches.

This is very interesting, I have to admit I've not seen these before Evan.  I can see now where you are coming from.  When the book I have says it was to have two pods under each wing I naturally assumed two seperate pods, if the pods were joined together like these ram jets I can see the possibilities.  The book I have doesn't mention that this was the arrangement though for the tanks but it certainly gives me a different line of thought.

I wonder if this u/c arrangement came about after Avro got the B-47 they used to test the Iroquois with and someone studied the outrigger gear on it  

But the cranked wing IS something I had thought about although this is the first time I seen a drawing of it on an Arrow.  I didn't go with it on my other Arrow as I figured the aircraft would have got heavier with the bigger engines I've imagined, plus the additional fuel load and of course heavier weapons, so I've increased the wing area a different way, something along the lines that the Vulcan went.  I don't have any photos of this model yet and it's packed away in some box so I can't even get it out to take some pics.

[kitnut617]

Hello!! Kitnut, I'm very interested by your Iroquois exhausts. I want to scratchbuild some... Any dimensions (diameter would be nice!) compared to the (crap)  kit exhausts ?
Didn't noticed (either) that the rear section of the plane (around the exhausts) was bare metal. I suppose no paint would resist Iroquois' heat    
Something to remember...

The wings clearly look much to thick, there's some re-profiling to do  

I took the cans from an F-14 Fujimi kit I have.  The kit had two or three sets included and the set that are in the open position suited what I wanted.  I sanded the turkey tails off until the outside was nice and smooth and then added a turbine fan to it before I attached it to the fuselage.

All I did to the Arrows wings was to carefully re-profile the leading edge to give it a sharper profile instead of the round leading edge the kit has and I sanded down the trailing edge too, Had to do a bit of rescribing afterwards though as the sanding took most of the detail away.  I left the wing thickness as it was as compared to the drawings it's not too bad.

[elmayerle]

The cranked wing was part of the PS-2 advanced Arrow, along with a fuselage extension in the nose and some rectangular canards.  All proposed variants from the Mk.III on had the Fieri inlets planned for that one.

[Archibald]

Great niouze! I've just received the F-14 canopy from Heller... so I'll start this Arrow II today...      

[Zen]

I have some concerns over those canards, seem to be infront of the inlets...

[Archibald]

first-rate nose jobs

They did it again    I've just noticed it    

[canuck]

hello kitnut.
nice model , but i think you got a little mistake about the cf-105 armament.It was designed to carry 8 falcon missiles,but the military changed their mind because they believed the probality of ahit with the falcon in a frontal attack was close to zero.so they requestd the sparrow 2 but the armament bay was only able to take 3 of them side by side or 4 in a staggered position.

[kitnut617]

hello kitnut.
nice model , but i think you got a little mistake about the cf-105 armament.It was designed to carry 8 falcon missiles,but the military changed their mind because they believed the probality of ahit with the falcon in a frontal attack was close to zero.so they requestd the sparrow 2 but the armament bay was only able to take 3 of them side by side or 4 in a staggered position.

Hi canuck,

Not according to the book I have which is supposed to be 'the' book to have.  The Falcons came after the Sparrows were cancelled

See here & scroll down a bit:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/9581/arrow.htm

[canuck]

Hi KItnutt
IF you look at the book "Avro Arrow " by the arrowheadsd there is a chart that show the evolution from the cf-100 to the cf-105,and you can clearly see the falcon on project cf-105/rb106 August 1953.The falcons and the hughes fire control system came back in the design because the astra and sparrow were cancelled.
About he range i read somewhere that the militaty was unsastified because the maximum ferry range was only accomplished by droping the "drop tank " which would have made a transfer from Canada to Europe unattractive.
Still love your model.

[kitnut617]

Hi KItnutt
IF you look at the book "Avro Arrow " by the arrowheadsd there is a chart that show the evolution from the cf-100 to the cf-105,and you can clearly see the falcon on project cf-105/rb106 August 1953.The falcons and the hughes fire control system came back in the design because the astra and sparrow were cancelled.
About he range i read somewhere that the militaty was unsastified because the maximum ferry range was only accomplished by droping the "drop tank " which would have made a transfer from Canada to Europe unattractive.
Still love your model.

Hi canuck,

Still not convinced eh!    maybe this might change your mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velvet_Glove_missile

And thanks for the compliment to my model.

Robert

[canuck]

Robert?
as per AVRO CF-100 by Larry Milberry the design of the velvet glove missile was started in 1950 not in 1953 as per wikipedia.
And for the armament http//www.vectorsite.net/avarrow.htmlI hope it will convince you.
There is a lot of myth about thr cf-105 which is one my favorite aircraft.
Michel.

[Archibald]

Your debate prove one thing : what killed the Arrow seem to be an unending list of shifts in fire-control systems.
IHMO, the Arrow was so advanced by its time that they simply didn't know what radar and missiles would fit within such machine.
So Velvet Gloves were replaced by Falcons, then by Sparrow II until autumn 1958. Then, back to the Falcons, because the Sparrow II was too much for its time (ARH Sparrow = AMRAAM, not until the 80's...)

But in the end, best weapon system for the Arrow would have been the
AN/ASG-18 /AIM-47 combo.  

In fact 15 years ago french aviation magazine "Le Fana de l'aviation" had a good article on the CF-105 story.
On chapter 4, they briefly mentioned that an agreement had been found with the USA for the use of the AN/ASG-18 radar. It aparently happened in Autumn 1958, just after the cancellation of the Sparrow II program. I'll try to find the article again for more details    

Guys, you know very well the Arrow program. Please help me finding information on the RCA Astra 1 and 2 radars...    

[kitnut617]

Try here Archie:  http://www.vectorsite.net/avarrow.html

I had a good read of this and also about the CF-100 and I can see where canuck is coming from.  But it only says that the original spec for the Arrow named the Falcon as the missile of choise but was changed very early to the Sparrow II (a fire & forget missile - too advanced for the time). And the Falcon and Velvet Glove missiles were only tested on the 'Clunk' (one Mk.3 for the Velvet Glove and a few Mk.5's with the Sparrow)

An interesting note in this article for the Arrow is it says it could carry 8 Falcons and 4 Sparrows

[canuck]

Hi.
In the book "the arrow scrapbook" by Peter Zuuring there  is a infra red sensor on the vertical surface about 2/3 up.So this is what i am building a arrow MK1 with a astra system as a test bed.I have a question that has been nagging me for years,why is the mk2 longer by 4ft.8in. than the mk1 while if you look a the station and datum line drawing the mk2 should be shorter? Is it me or my knowledge of this type of drawing is outdated?
Thanks a lot