V-22 Osprey

[tinlail]

Superconducting generator technology is being suggested for high-bypass jet engines Seems like it could work for avoiding the weight and power loss issues of shafts driven fans.
A graphic that sums up the idea.







***cleaned up the html***-jjf

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Superconducting generator technology is being suggested for high-bypass jet engines Seems like it could work for avoiding the weight and power loss issues of shafts driven fans.
A graphic that sums up the idea.

That is a really great idea.  I wonder if they could incorporate the generator portion into the rim of the fan? 

Would it be possible with that technology to mount your motor-generator units independent of the rotors/fans?

[tinlail]

Superconducting generator technology is being suggested for high-bypass jet engines Seems like it could work for avoiding the weight and power loss issues of shafts driven fans.
A graphic that sums up the idea.

That is a really great idea.  I wonder if they could incorporate the generator portion into the rim of the fan? 

Would it be possible with that technology to mount your motor-generator units independent of the rotors/fans?

That is what the article suggested.

[dragon]

I have been in a funk and decided to look through my collection of DVDs for inspiration. 
Watching SPACE: ABOVE AND BEYOND made me realize that the OSPREY was the starting point used for their ISSCV.
Then I watched some episodes of GHOST IN THE SHELL, and they had some sort of longer wing and two engines on that wing for their version of the OSPREY. 
They may actually be doable in plastic.  I may even do them in the future.
However, I am totally smitten by those half BLACK WIDOWS (YF-23) half FLANKERS in Japanese markings near the end of the GHOST IN THE SHELL: STAND ALONE COMPLEX- SECOND GIG series.  I am actually doing one of those first!

[Sauragnmon]

Tin, that's a Beautiful perspective - I LOVE that.  That answers a question over on the Hind thread, quite directly - if the motors and generators can be mounted seperate of the main engines, then you have the capacity for the Tiltrotor Hind - use the original engine mountings to house the motor/generators, and then you have them powering the actual lift/drive systems in the drive nacelles... it's Beautiful.  You have the redundancy without much problems at all, and centralize most of the weight/fuel for the main power generation systems.

[Yasotay]

Hello All Sorry I have missed this great thread up till now.  A couple thoughts about some of the great V-22 What Ifs found here.

The six bladed version I think is a very real possibility down the road as the V-22 team works to improve performance.  The tough part will be making the blades fold for stowing on and below deck, unless it is for a non-ship capable version.

On the ducted fan version it is a very interesting idea but there are some things to consider with those BIG ducts.  It looks like a lot of extra weight so the wing might have to be beefed up.  One of the biggest issues for V-22 is the velocity of the wind coming off the prop-rotors in VTOL mode.  Those ducts will really make the velocity even more pronounce. Gonna be hard to get those things under deck as well.  You will however probably get a decent increase in cruise speed though.

Please don't take this as critical comment as it really is brilliant work, but having spent some time professionally observing tilt rotor and VTOL technology just thought I would share some of the realities that challenge making an aircraft.

[GTX]

Regards,

Greg

[Yasotay]

Well put.   

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Hello All Sorry I have missed this great thread up till now.  A couple thoughts about some of the great V-22 What Ifs found here.

The six bladed version I think is a very real possibility down the road as the V-22 team works to improve performance.  The tough part will be making the blades fold for stowing on and below deck, unless it is for a non-ship capable version.

On the ducted fan version it is a very interesting idea but there are some things to consider with those BIG ducts.  It looks like a lot of extra weight so the wing might have to be beefed up.  One of the biggest issues for V-22 is the velocity of the wind coming off the prop-rotors in VTOL mode.  Those ducts will really make the velocity even more pronounce. Gonna be hard to get those things under deck as well.  You will however probably get a decent increase in cruise speed though.

Please don't take this as critical comment as it really is brilliant work, but having spent some time professionally observing tilt rotor and VTOL technology just thought I would share some of the realities that challenge making an aircraft.

The ducted fan concept was based on an air vehicle from a video game called Recoil.  It is a WHIF. 

As far as folding rotor blades go.  I don't see where that would be an issue if the aircraft in question was not destined for Navy or Marine Corps use on board ship where stowage is an issue.  Perhaps it could be developed further for civil aviation use or for the Army and Air Force where the need folding rotors is not as great. 

[Yasotay]

The original JVX that became the V-22 was an Army program, or at least done in parallel with what would become Osprey.  It had a longer non-folding wing and bigger prop-rotors.  The prop-rotors and wing on MV-22 are smaller so that it can land next to the island on LHD and other USN ships.  I think it very likely that if military organizations that don't work off of ships for a living started using V-22 there would be a real possibility they would look for ways to improve the aircraft's performance; like more blades and maybe redesigned wings.

As to the ducted fan, the second longest flying VTOL experimental in the US was the X-22A which is a four post ducted fan.  There is some reason to believe that we might want to re-look ducted fan VTOL aircraft as we spend more time in and around cities.  Open rotors and buildings, trees, light post, wires, etc., don't go well together.  Putting a shroud around the rotor means you can bump into things and maybe live to talk about it (although you probably have to change your flight suit).  I think that there is real possibility it is not far fetched at all.  If you were going to do a V-22 that is say 100 knots faster, I think the "H" tail would get changed out for a "V" tail with horizontal stabilizers or possibly canards for better pitch control.  Take a look at some of the Bell artwork for "stop/fold"  Tilt rotors and you can see what I mean.

It really is cool stuff and you have to forgive me for getting 'geeky' about it.  When I see something close to engineering level precision in the art it just brings it out.  I am not in anyway trying to be critical about the work, especially since this is the What If Forum.

[GTX]

Presidential VH-71 based on the V-22 anyone? Or is that VV-22?

Osprey To Swoop For WH Lawn

By Colin Clark Wednesday, April 21st, 2010 2:09 pm
Posted in Air, Policy
If the White House and Pentagon have figured out how to fix the interagency process that helped doom the first stab at a new presidential helicopter, Navy Secretary Ray Mabus didn't make it crystal clear this morning.

I asked Mabus who was in charge of the program and he said the Navy has the administrative program lead and Ash Carter coordinates the program for the Pentagon. I pressed him to find out who really has the program lead and about the role of the White House (aka Secret Service working with the WH Military Office) and he paused for a long time. Then he let it lie.

According to the Military Office's website, it: "oversees policy related to WHMO functions and Department of Defense assets and ensures that White House requirements are met with the highest standards of quality... The WHMO units include the White House Communications Agency, Presidential Airlift Group, White House Medical Unit, Camp David, Marine Helicopter Squadron One, Presidential Food Service, and the White House Transportation Agency. To assure proper coordination and integration, the WHMO also includes support elements such as operations; policy, plans, and requirements; administration, information resource management; financial management and comptroller; WHMO counsel; and security."

Let's hope that the program's players know who is really in charge and just don't want to talk about it. Finally, Mabus also said he wished he'd been on the job earlier in the program. "It'd be a lot easier if Id been around," he said, smiling. Perhaps head banging was needed and he is adept at it?

Meanwhile, it may seem an unlikely choice but Bell Helicopter and Boeing say they are likely players in the presidential helicopter competition. They told Defense Daily that they are "preparing a response to the RFI request with a VV-22 solution."

Imagine the sight of a V-22 swooping down to the White House lawn with those enormous blades. Great advertising for the capability. After all, if the White House deems it safe enough to carry the president then it must be ready for prime time, anywhere and any time.

Regards,

Greg

[anthonyp]

I coulda swore the reason they didn't pitch it last time around for the VXX was because it was too big (like the CH-53E and CH-53K).

[Shasper]

Y'know, being a Marine A/C the V-22 would'nt be bad for a VXX . . . Maybe one or two MV-22s fitted with some of the CV's equipment & other things, leave 'em in the combat gray except for the presidential seal near the door & maybe a green/white fin flash?

[kitnut617]

I coulda swore the reason they didn't pitch it last time around for the VXX was because it was too big (like the CH-53E and CH-53K).

Umm!  what might this be ?

http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Marines/Sikorsky-CH-53E-Super/1682167/&sid=27fbdb4ad345a3524646a330f21399a2
http://www.airliners.net/photo/USA---Marines/Sikorsky-CH-53E-Super/1521259/&sid=25c73a76e12f57367661823f89f0c5f4

As an aside, I've got some 1/72 decals to do this aircraft.

[Taiidantomcat]

The Corps has a bunch of those VX 53Es I saw about a half dozen the last time I was in Quantico. I believe they are used to move other personnel and not the President himself, or if they do transport the president they could not fit on the white house lawn so it falls to the H-3 version more commonly seen in the press releases, photo ops, and when a president flashes the peace sign with both hands after resigning.

VV-22 would be awesome.  

EDIT: They also fly VH-46s and VH-60s