Mirage G

[Archibald]

Alternate timeline.

1963
The AdA decide in favor of the Mirage F2, two-seat STOL strike fighter. Dassault quickly find that VG improve STOL, and draw a VG Mirage F2,
the Mirage G.  The AdA bite the idea, and Mirage F2 is scrapped in favor of the G.

Aeronavale also has interest in the G  because of the DAFNE program (long range,loitering fleet defender).
French navy decide in favor of a third Suffren frigate (with MASURCA SAMs) instead of buying 42 Crusaders, leaving Etendard IVs as fleet defenders.

Spain buy two Clemenceaus, to enter service in 1971.
This open the way to a third Clemenceau for the french navy "or maybe a bigger, improved variant at 35 000, 40 000 or even 45 000 tons" say french minister of defense Pierre Messmer, targeting the RN which CVA-01 is in deep trouble.

Hawker P.1154 had been scrapped as too risky in 1962, leaving the P.1127 for the RAF as the Harrier.
RN Se Vixen replacement is still OR.346 specification  for a long range, long loitering fleet defender (which, considering British carriers and weight of the aircraft, will need VI or VG wings, or lift jets, or blowned flaps).

1964 First discussion between France and GB on military collaborative programs. A supersonic trainer, and a long strike fighter dubbed the AFVG are the main targets.
The RN decide in favor of a 42 000 ton Clemenceau derivative instead of the doomed CVA-01.

1965
17th May The great french - british deal is now on the way.

AFVG had been  scrapped in favor of Buccs, F-111s and Mirage IV.

Br.121 has survived but stay in the training role.

DAFNE and OR-346 specs have been merged into a single aircraft with the following caracteristics
- a single, 22 000 Ibs thrust turbofan
- VG wings
- long loitering time
- fleet defense
A derivative of the Mirage G is used as basis for the new aircraft.
Problems arise on the engine, but an agrement is found for two variants, one with the Spey 300 and other with TF-306E.

1966
12th June : first flight of the Mirage G 01, french prototype of the AdA strike variant.

US interest in the Mirage G arise as  the F-111B is in trouble. Both machines use a TF-30 turbofan and VG wings.

The USN ask  Dassault to make a study of a Mirage G with a  downgraded AWG-9 and two AIM-54 underwings. Dassault team with Vought, of which production of the Crusader has ended in 1965.
The aim is to use the Mirage G as a stopgap between the F-111B and future VFAX, but also as an AIM-54 platform  on Midways and Essex small flight decks, replacing Crusaders.

So a team rather  similar to the Kestrel group is setup around the Mirage G. The collaborative effort around the machine include four countries, France, GB, Spain and the USA.

The Mirage International (as it is now called) is a machine with the following caracteristics
- two-seats
- a 22 000 Ibs Spey 300 or TF-306E turbofan
- AWG-95 radar (an AWG-9 with a smaller antenna to fit into the Mirage nose)
- Armement consist of various combos (such as two AIM-54 + a centerline drop tank for example).
- landing speed is 115 kt
- maximum weight 19.5 tons
- Maximum speed mach 2.15

In 1974, there's 8 carriers in service in Europe, all armed with Mirage G "international".
In case of Soviet attack in Northern Atlantic, these 8 carriers and their Mirage G would complement USN Carriers and their Tomcats,  in the role of hunting and killing  Soviets ASM bombers with AIM-54s...

The Mirage G is called "the pocket Tomcat" because it use the same engine, and weapon system. It is very useful because it use smaller carriers than Grumman's  aircraft...

[Lawman]

The TomKitten! I like it!

Not as sure about Spain, simply because it was still Franco in charge at the time, which would be a little dodgy, but otherwise, I agree 100%.

I disagree about the cancelled Crusader order - it would have provided a natural link-up between France and Vought, allowing the G to follow the Crusader naturally. If it is seen as a purely interim fighter, then it would allow a barter deal with Vought - i.e. we buy Crusader now, and you agree to work with us for the replacement Mirage G.

Maybe even just tie this in with the discussion on the other thread about much earlier cooperation, with the UK buying Clemenceaus in the 1950s. If the UK had decided to join up with France post Suez, buying replacements for the WW2 surviving carriers. If the UK had had something like a series of problems with the old boilers on the ships, and maybe some deck buckling, then new carriers might have been a higher priority. The UK thus matches the French order for two new 35,000 ton carriers (the French liking the bigger decks of the British carriers in Suez, thus scaling up Clemenceau a bit), with the order placed in 1957, with a second pair ordered in 1960. To deal with the larger hulls, the UK agrees to help fund a new construction dock, to build the basic hulls, to be fitted out in Britain, but with a joint Anglo-French team in both yards.

The ships are laid down as follows:

1st ship  - 1957 - French, becoming Clemenceau
2nd ship - 1958 - British, becoming HMS Vengeance
3rd ship - 1958 - British, becoming HMS Vigilant
4th ship - 1959 - French, becoming Foch
5th ship - 1960 - British, becoming HMS Vanguard
6th ship - 1961 - British, becoming HMS Vindictive
7th ship - 1962 - French, becoming Richelieu

The basic hulls are built in around two years, then moved to dry dock in the UK for fitting out. This then takes around two years including basic testing, and then a final year for sea trials and acceptance. As a result, the first ship, Clemenceau is ready for service by late 1962, followed the next year by the first British ship, Vengeance. It is even arguable that the UK might have been able to push for a final carrier, to enable them to keep the fleet at five fleet carriers, rather than let it drop down to four. The best bit is that all these ships would be nearly completed by the time the new UK government comes into power, hopefully avoiding cancellations.

The Mirage G is then built instead of the Tornado, forming the bulwark of the British and French fighter fleets, through to the '90s. It is built with the ability to carry two Sparrow missiles, or the new Anglo-French derivative, a la Skyflash or Aspide, but with French involvement, Phoenix missiles on the wings, and Sidewinders. The aircraft has a pair of wing hardpoints for heavy weapons, with shoulder pylons for Magic or Sidewinders. The two belly recesses for Sparrow can also be used as an attachment point for a single 1000lb bomb. The wing hardpoints are able to carry a single Phoenix or Sparrow missile, a drop tank, or a pair of 1000lb bombs. The result is the ability to carry up to four Sparrows and four Sidewinders, or two Phoenix, two Sparrow and four Sidewinders. The aircraft can also carry a pair of large drop tanks on the swing wing (a la F-111), and can drop these for long range duties. This is not as big a problem as it may sound, as the drop tanks are only dropped for supersonic flight, and most long range missions are entirely subsonic.

[Archibald]

Maybe even just tie this in with the discussion on the other thread about much earlier cooperation, with the UK buying Clemenceaus in the 1950s

Good idea! But I saw Zen post only this morning, and perfectly agree with this idea!
I sought a way for GB to have Clemenceaus, and Zen- Lawman idea sounds better than mine (GB buy Clems instead of CVA-01 in 1966).  
Better to have a collaborative program at the start, Ie in 1952-1954 !!    

Can't see the Aeronavale buying Crusaders AND Mirage Gs, so maybe Dassault - Vought deal won't work.
But that's not the most important point here, in every case  the USN never bought  a foreign fighter (and there's not enough time between F-111B and
F-14 to allow an interim type).

I agree on other points, particularly what you said about Mirage G armement and drop tanks, good point there!

Don't know if the Mirage G would kill the Tornado, considering that the Mirage is a single-engine and naval interceptor.
As I said before, "graft" the Mirage G to the Jaguar in 1965 instead of the AFVG.

But I can't see why this would  change anything in the birth of the MRCA program in 1968... GB still need a two-engine, long range strike fighter to replace its cancelled F-111 order.
Mirage G just couldn't fulfill this role, it was the role of its bigger brother the Mirage G8.    

Well, if the collaborative effort between France and GB (on the Jag and Mirage G) works better, we can even imagine France being part of the MRCA instead of building Mirage G8 and ACF prototypes from 1971 to 1976...
A Mirage G8 - Tornado hybrid would be quite a strike machine  

[Lawman]

Given the very attractive landing speeds of the swing wing on the Mirage G-4 or G-8, I would actually be tempted by the G-4. A twin seat navalised G-4, with a pair of 20,000lb thrust Spey 300s, would be an excellent fighter, with great capability. The only worry is weight-wise for launch - the landing speed is good enough, so I doubt that would be too much of a problem. The launch weight of a fully loaded naval G-4 might be as high as 65,000lbs, which could be a problem for any catapults under 250ft. A 75m catapult should be sufficient, and could launch a 60,000lb G-4 to 120 knots, which should be enough.

Also, if the aircraft has a pair of engines in that size class, you might even have growth capability to integrate bigger engines in the F-110 class, with potential thrust ratings of up to 30,000lbs each, giving it a nearly 1:1 TWR at almost MTOW, and much higher in air combat configuration!  B)

The G-4 certainly does present some problems, but with the variable geometry wings, even the higher weights are relatively manageable. I think the benefits of the two engines make it more attractive, not just as a naval fighter, but just generally as a fighter. The G-8 would still be at least 2/3 the weight, and yet have only half the thrust, so I would prefer the G-4. I do feel that a G-4 from the late '60s would kill the Tornado project, or to be more precise, it would be an Anglo-French Tornado!

The Tornado was always designed as a low level strike aircraft, but it has suffered from that ever since - the low thrust engines optimised for low level have crippled its high altitude performance. It meant that the ADV Tornado lacked the thrust necessary to turn and burn with the best, and once the emphasis shifted from low-level strike to medium altitude precision bombing, the Tornado engines showed their weaknesses. A G-4 would be good enough at low level, and yet be excellent as medium or high altitude, and still be a very relevant fighter today. It would, in effect, be a slightly smaller Tomcat type, which is nothing to be sniffed at!

BTW, do you have any info on the RAGEL electronic warfare program? It is mentioned on the Dassault site in passing, on their Mirage G page, but no more info. I would assume it was either a jammer/sead project, or possibly an ELINT project, but I can't find anything about it - even what RAGEL stands for!

[Archibald]

RAGEL ? French acronym!    
Reconnaissance
+
Attaque
+
Guerre
Electronique
Lointaine

In english : Recon, Attack, SEAD / Jamming (Guerre electronique = electronic warfare)  ... at Long range (Lointaine)

No other infos on the thing, other than the unfinished G4 first prototype was a two seat machine and become the G8-01 prototype, which flew on 8th May 1971.

I think the G4 / G8 would have been too heavies for navalisation. They were bigger machine than the Tornado, not too far from a Mirage IV in overall length.

I remember a chat with Thorvic on MSN. He explained me that AFVG (pre- anglo-french Tornado ) would have been superior to Tornado simply because French specs were closer from the British than German / Italy ones.  
AFVG would have been less compromised in its range, Germany limiting Tornado range below 2000 kms because of its post-WWII feelings (no long range bomber, no A-bomb, and so on).

I can see  Spey- powered Mirage G4 or  G8 , because their engines bays were tailored for the M53 turbofan, which came too late (the two Mirage G8 prototypes  spent their whole cariers with Mirage F1 engines).
But the F-100 is way too big!

I've recently bought a marvellous book called "Pilotes d'essais" by Germain Chambost.
A test pilot remember some of its flights in the Mirage G8 - mach 2.2 at high height, and mach 1.2 at 100 ft over the Mediterranean sea !!
And this was with Atar 9k50 only...

[Archibald]

The USN ask  Dassault to make a study of a Mirage G with a  downgraded AWG-9 and two AIM-54 underwings. Dassault team with Vought, of which production of the Crusader has ended in 1965.
The aim is to use the Mirage G as a stopgap between the F-111B and future VFAX, but also as an AIM-54 platform  on Midways and Essex small flight decks, replacing Crusaders.

Bump !

Whatif this was part of a bigger deal between France and the USA ? (after De Gaulle left power of course)

Say, Vought team with Dassault to promote the Mirage G/ Phoenix as a low end to the Tomcat.

Others  deals appears

Aerospatiale decide to build A-7 Corsair II under licence for the Aeronavale.

Then the AdA find that the Corsair could be interesting to replace the (cancelled) Jaguar, Mirage IIIE and (later) Mirage F1CT fighter bombers.

So the A-7 is mass produced by Aerospatiale in Toulouse.

Next step : the engine.

TF-30 and TF-41 are old, the US Navy want F-401 in its F-14B, but the program is cancelled in the mid 70's.

At the same time, P&W and Snecma have created CFM International to build the civilian turbofan CMF-56.
So, what about a TFM-53 ?
I mean, a M53 build under licence, as the Spey/TF-41 before it.

The TFM-53 is an improved M53-2 (not too difficult ) which power the F-14C, A-7F Corsair III (F stand for France) and Mirage G "International"

Even better : a mixed fleet of Mirage G / A-7F Corsair actually kill the VFAX program... no F-18 Hornet.

Its mainly because R. Reagan won the 1972 presidential election. Thus the "600 navy ship" program start a decade earlier... just in time to upgrade a dozen of old Essex carriers (instead of building unuseful Sea Control Ships) 

Their airgroup include E-1B Tracers, Mirage G, and Harrier for strike, complemented by Lockheed Vikings later.

[Archibald]

Ok, let's try to summarize this

POD is 1959.

1959
France wants a bigger Mirage IV, the Mirage IVB with 5000 km range. It will need foreign engines, and there's four contenders
- the J-75
- the Olympus
- the Iroquois
- the RB-142

The latter is chosen, but the Mirage IVB is scrapped soon thereafter, KC-135 + Mirage IVA instead.
SNECMA nevertheless give 10% of its shares to Rolls Royce and show interest in the scaled-down RB-142, the  RB-168 Spey.

Miracle happen and the RAF decide to buy an improved Buccaneer instead of GOR-339.

1960 SNECMA and RR  reach an agreement on a reheated RB-168, to power
- the BAC P.39 / Mirage IIIV proposal for NATO/ AdA VTOL competition
- Alternate Mirage III follow-ons
- the Buccaneer S.2

the French Navy understand that its third, enlarged PA-58 Verdun carrier is simply unaffordable. Instead of postponing or cancelling it, they try to sell the project to the British government.
OR-346 is written.

1962 Europa and Concorde programs starts. On the wakes of these successes talks start on trainers, strike fighters and VG machines.
DAFNE is written and found similar to OR-346.

1963 First flight of the Buccaneer S.2 with unreheated Speys. DAFNE and OR-346 specs are merged. Thus three programs are now discussed
- supersonic trainer and light fighter
- Naval interceptor
- long range strike fighter.
An agreement is reached on a 45 000 tons carrier. France would buy one, Great Britain three. They will enter service around 1975.
The Aeronavale decide to loan some Sea Vixen to the RN (instead of buying Crusaders).

Two contenders are studied for the naval interceptors :
- a two-seat, Spey-powered Crusader
- the Mirage F2
Both are found insufficient and are rejected in favour of a VG variant of the F2.

1964 June First flight of the Mirage IIIK, a Mirage III with a Spey.

1965 The long range strike fighter studies are scrapped, France settle in favour of the Mirage IV. Great Britain compare the F-111 and a tentative "European long range VG strike fighter" with Germany and Italy.
GB and France agree on the supersonic/strike trainer and the naval interceptor based on the Mirage G.

1968
January
First flight of the Mirage G, US interest in the machine.
It would be a stopgap AND low-end to the future VFX (F-14 Tomcat)

US-GB-France agreement.
RR, SNECMA and Allison team on the TF-41/Spey, to power the following machines
- Mirage G
- A-7 Corsair II
- F-111
- F-14 Tomcat.

The Aeronavale and USN decide to buy a mixed fleet of Mirage G and A-7 Corsair II.
The USN consider this as a low-end for the Tomcat; the Aeronavale need a replacement for the Etendard IV in the strike role.
USSR decide to expend enormously its fleet of antiship-bombers. Thus the US government agree to sell the AWG-9/ Phoenix to France and GB.
A downgraded variant is tailored for the Mirage G, to bolster the Tomcat fleet.
E-1B Tracers are sold to the Royal Navy and Aeronavale. Their role is to vector the Mirage G to the soviet bombers.

The AdA show interest in the A-7 for the strike role.
European agreement on the MRCA VG strike fighter, later the Tornado.

(a consequence of the Mirage G/ A-7 mixed fleet is there's no VFAX Ie no F-18 around 1974).

By the way Mirage G very low take off and landing speed make it the only supersonic fighter able to land on the Essex and Midway carriers. Thus they are upgraded instead of CVV and SCS "cheap carriers" studies.

[Zen]

Hmmmm.......
starts march 17 1959 with a Naval Staff Target for service entry in 1970.
April that year joint RN and RAF discussions produce OR.346.

OR.346 is put back and the more affordable, and achievable AW406 is the name of the spec for the RN (OR.356 for the RAF) in April 1962.

June 1961 NMBR.3 is issued, the joint winner, P1154 is the machine the RN have to accept in April 1962.

29 October 1963 the common aircraft P1154 is dropped, F4 for the RN, and a V/STOL machine for the RAF.

That was the real world.

Now proposals. Type 584 is proposed to NMBR.3, this is not a million miles away from the Mirage G, especialy in the early Type 585 study for a RN variant. Work stopped on Type 584 in 29 June 1962.

DAFNE fits AW406 I might add. So one might see an Anglo-French cooperation with Dassault and BAC from 1962 onwards.

[Archibald]

Thank you for the precisions. I haven't Butler's bibles on hand these days...

Ok for AW 406/ DAFNE merging.

June 1961 NMBR.3 is issued, the joint winner, P1154 is the machine the RN have to accept in April 1962.

What about Bac P.39 (= English Electric Mirage IIIV)  instead of P.1154 ? This would introduce the french, and preserve the supersonic VTOL. 

29 October 1963 the common aircraft P1154 is dropped, F4 for the RN, and a V/STOL machine for the RAF.

In this ATL the BAC P.39 is dropped and replaced by the type 585 / Mirage G hybrid.

To be honest, according to Henry Matthews, Mirage G studies started only  in may 1964. But the base was the Mirage F2, itself started in 1963.
So we can suppose that the "Mirage G" would be a Mirage F2 with Type 585' VG wings.

Interestingly the Mirage IVB program started in march 1959.
So March 1959 would really be our POD here.