Churchill Infantry Tank

[dy031101]

The infantry tank underwent field modification in North Africa with several Churchills being fitted with the turret and its 75 mm gun of destroyed M4 Shermans.

It got me wondering.  What if Israel had a sufficient number of those tanks on strength when Arab countries just started introducing T-54 and T-55?  Would they be able to take the modified Sherman turret armed with the CN-105D1 gun?

[dy031101]

Or take the M50 Isherman turret armed with the 75mm or the M51 armed with the 105mm and mount that on the Churchill.  Of course you would really need to do something about the engine as well.

That's exactly what I said.  Put a CN-105D1 gun on it and use applique armours to protect the modified Improved Sherman turret.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

The 75mm would have been all but useless save for point blank range against a T-54/55.  Now if you had the opportunity to put the 17pounder from the Firefly on the Churchill.  I wonder how that would look?  Or take the M50 Isherman turret armed with the 75mm or the M51 armed with the 105mm and mount that on the Churchill.  Of course you would really need to do something about the engine as well.

As robust as the Churchill was, I think you could get away with a larger turret from an M26, M46/M47 or even a Centurion on the Churchill hull.

[dy031101]

As robust as the Churchil was, I think you could get away with a larger turret from an M26, M46/M47 or even a Centurion on the Churchil hull.

How extensive of a hull modification would be required for such turrets?

[dy031101]

The only real problem you will have is with the turret diameter, all of the turrets I mentioned had a wider turret ring which means some minor surgery on your Churchil to make it fit.

I brought up the theme with avoiding having to lengthen or widen the hull in mind (as part of the "tanks for Reserves and Home Guards" theme).

[Radish]

The trouble with the Churchill (apart from being designed to the wrong concept) was that it was designed to fit a British railway flat trailer which limited the width, hence the narrow, limited turret ring.
Why not develop a Tank Destroyer?

[Jeffry Fontaine]

The only real problem you will have is with the turret diameter, all of the turrets I mentioned had a wider turret ring which means some minor surgery on your Churchill to make it fit.

The trouble with the Churchill (apart from being designed to the wrong concept) was that it was designed to fit a British railway flat trailer which limited the width, hence the narrow, limited turret ring.Why not develop a Tank Destroyer?

Makes sense now that you have pointed out why it was so narrow, but who would have thought?  So if you were to create a Tank Hunter from the Churchill, it would need a weapon that would command respect as well as have range and penetration at extreme range to outgun the opposition.  Perhaps something larger like the 20 pounder as mounted on the later Centurion or a larger weapon such as those under development in the U.S. in 105mm or 120mm, both of which would have turned a Tiger or Panther inside out if given the opportunity to engage.  

Of course this would require some serious reconstruction of the Churchill as the great length of these gun barrels would project too far forward for any decent maneuvering, it would be prudent to mount the gun compartment at the rear of the vehicle with the driver compartment at the front and the engine mounted between them.  

Now the normal configuration of rear mounted engine might be had if you were going to create an assault gun from the Churchill and arming it with a short barrel large caliber weapon such as a 95mm, 105mm or a 155mm howitzer.  As an Infantry support gun this would be ideal for providing direct fire support to the attacking infantry and it would have a projectile large enough to cause damage to an armored vehicle even if it did not penetrate the frontal armor and it would definitely be valuable for blowing holes in walls and buildings for the infantry.

Some more ideas for Churchill variants:

• SPAAG with the twin 40mm cannons and gun tub from the M42 Duster
• Reconnaissance vehicle with the turret from the M41 or the M24
• Tank Destroyer with the turret from the M10 or the M36
• SPG with the upper works and 105mm howitzer from the M7 Priest
• Panther Turret mounted on the Churchill hull

[cthulhu77]

No turret, but with a 100+mm, like a s-tank?

[jcf]

The 17pdr gun was mounted on a widened Churchill hull.

The A43 Black Prince:




Jon

[Jeffry Fontaine]

The 17pdr gun was mounted on a widened Churchill hull.  The A43 Black Prince

Jon,

Thanks for sharing those images.  Until now I had no idea that the A43 Black Prince was based on a modified Churchill hull.  The turret appears to have come directly from the early Centurion and it looks quite at home on that hull.

[Sauragnmon]

Ah, the Black Prince, another Should-have-been.  But then, once the Brits realized just how good the 17pdr was, they kinda bolted that sucker on Anything that they could - the Archer's a real good example of just how much they did that.

It does make it quite an interesting thought, seeing a surviving Churchill somewhere in the world post-war being refitted.  The 105mm Super Sherman turret might fit, wouldn't it?  Super Sherman, Sherman Jumbo, Sherman Firefly, all quite interesting turrets to mount on our old Sir Winnie The Poo (nickname from my mother's early school days - her school was Sir Winston Churchill, they all nicknamed it that.)

It would also be interesting to put a lighter turret, armed with MG's or Autocannons, on a Mk1 Sherman style, with the small howitzer in the hull instead, and see what fun you could have with hull mounted destruction in a Churchill.

[nev]

Well, the Black Prince suffered a lot of delays, and by the time it was ready, the war was over and the far superior Centurion was about to enter service.

[dy031101]

When I remembered that Irish Army also operated the Churchill tank, I started having this idea......

How much can you up-armour the turret of AML-90 and what is its turret ring size?

If the turret ring size match (past attempts to Google out the Churchill's turret ring size yields a number "54.25"...... is it supposed to be in inches?), put a AML-90 turret onto the Churchill hull, up-armour the turret as much as possible, and......  

[rickshaw]

The infantry tank underwent field modification in North Africa with several Churchills being fitted with the turret and its 75 mm gun of destroyed M4 Shermans.

No, they weren't.  The Churchill Mk.IV NA was fitted with the mantel and gun from damaged M4 Shermans.  Very interesting story behind it.  An EME officer was visiting the tank graveyard when the idea occurred to him and off his own bat he carried out the first conversion, showed it to his superior who told him to run with the idea.  The result was IIRC about 150 vehicles modified.  It gave the 6 Pdr armed Churchill a much needed (at that time) HE capability, although worse AP capabilities.

[rickshaw]

As robust as the Churchill was, I think you could get away with a larger turret from an M26, M46/M47 or even a Centurion on the Churchill hull.

No you couldn't.  They had very different turret rings.  There is no way you could put one of those turrets on a Churchill without adding an adapter ring (ie a small box on top of the hull).