Old Birds

[GTX]

Hi folks,

Whilst walking the dog, it occurred to me that the USAF has had B-52s in active service since 1955 -  a whopping 52yrs likely to continue for some time yet!  What if other aircraft were kept in frontline service for as long (no mention of DC-3s here though - that's not fair!)?  Possible results:

Supermarine Sptifires and Hawker Hurricanes still in frontline service in the early 1990's (based upon service entries of 1937/38) - what Mk would they be?  What upgrades?  Will the Spitfire be fitted to carry ASRAAM, Hurricane with Brimstone?  Will they be fitted for, but not with 27 mm Mauser BK-27 cannon?  Spitfires, over Suez and the Falklands anyone?

Lancasters and Hallifaxs, not to mention Wellingtons and Sunderlands also in frontline service into the 90's and beyond?

Beaufighters operating over Kuwait during the 1991 invasion?

Other additions anyone?

Regards,

Greg

[Maverick]

I think in all actuality, the Buff's longetivity is more due to the adapability and growth potential of its design.

That said, all of the aircraft mentioned are piston engines of one sort or another, so I guess the logical choice would be to replace with turboprops.  

Funnily enough, heavier armament particularly for the US and AAMs in general were designed because of the advances in jet technology that produced faster, heavier aircraft with air combat time being reduced to seconds.

BVRs of course were to deal with enemy aircraft at range, but that also means radars to guide or at least track the bogey.

I'd almost guarantee the recoil of the BK27 would be horrendous for something as comparitively dainty as a Spit.

Regards,

Mav

[Iranian F-14A]

I was reading today that the USAF would be keeping the T-38s until 2050 - by which time the airframes would be approaching 100 years old.

As far as prop planes goes,I could see turboprop models of the B-26K Invader,B-17 and B-24 being interesting and useful.

[upnorth]

As far as prop planes goes,I could see turboprop models of the B-26K Invader,B-17 and B-24 being interesting and useful.

Well the turboprop has done wonders for keeping the DC-3 and S-2 Tracker going.

The F-4 Phantom is coming close to 50 years of operational service and the C-130 Hercules is still going strong.

As for older aircraft staying around, would turboprop conversion have kept some of these birds useful and around longer?:

Avro Shackleton
P-38 Lightning
DH Mosquito

[Iranian F-14A]

Oh yeah,almost forgot,but the Chinese put turboprops onto their Tu-4s(B-29s) and kept them flying up till the early to possibly mid '80s(albiet in support roles such as Drone hauler and the AWACS bird)

The Mustang could have(and should have in my opinion) been flying in the early '90s,with a turboprop in the form of the Piper PA-48 Enforcer.The interesting thing about this case is a design being brought back from the dead,and modernized over 42 years after the Mustangs first flight.Not only that,but being a frontline combat type as well.

[GTX]

DH Mosquito

There's an interesting idea - a Turboprop Mossie - RR Trents to start with followed by RR Darts maybe?

Regards,

Greg

[Lawman]

I wouldn't bet on any of the world war two types (other than transports) being still in service, but the immediate post-war types would be excellent candidates.

A-1 Skyraiders - rebuilt during Vietnam, to serve as close support and helo escort types. These are upgraded with FLIR balls and laser designators, and routinely carry mutliple Hellfires and LGBs, along with multiple 20mm cannon.

T-33 - heavily upgraded, with a new engine, and a glass cockpit, serving as basic jet trainers, and possibly light attack birds, using a laser ranger and marked target seeker.

T-37 - rebuilt, instead of the JPATS program, with new engines, glass cockpit, and other upgrades. They also continue to serve in new versions of the A-37, with miniguns, and new rockets. The drug enforcement missions in Colombia (etc) are all given large numbers of these aircraft, to escort crop dusters on drug eradication missions.

A-4 Skyhawks - upgraded by the Marines in the '80s with new radars (APG-66) and engines (F-404s). These continue to serve alongside Hornets and Harriers, with newer weapons, and new systems.

Canberra - upgraded with late model Olympus engines in the '60s, and then F-118 engines (as on the U-2S), using their superior load carrying ability to carry sensor payloads very high. With the new engines, they are capable of carrying long range radars, and intelligence gathering systems very high.

F-4 Phantom - heavily upgraded by the RAF in the '80s, instead of buying Tornado ADV. They get new engines (the P&W P1120), and radars, and the RAF ends up getting more than two hundred 'new' ex-US Navy Phantoms, which are refurbished and 'zero timed'. These continue to serve today, awaiting the Typhoon replacing them.

A-6 Intruder - heavily upgraded, these form the basis of the new EA-6C Prowler, which is even bought by the USAF, to replace their EF-111 Ravens. The A-6F is bought by the US Navy, Marines, and Air Force, to serve as a light bomber, and is even bought, as the A-6I by Israel. It is also bought to replace the F-111 in Australia, including a small batch of RA-6s, serving as long range ELINT platforms, and dedicated KA-6 tankers.

There are many other possibilities, but generally anything post-war is a good possibility, due to the size-shift in aircraft that happened postwar.

[Arc3371]

The B-36 being upgraded with turboprops and more effective jets to lay down bomb mats during vietnam and WoT

[BillSlim]

Upgraded Vulcans and Victors still in RAF service.

[dy031101]

The B-36 being upgraded with turboprops and more effective jets to lay down bomb mats during vietnam and WoT

B-47 as well?

[Arc3371]

Why not?

[dy031101]

Why not?

They and B-52 can be outfitted as carpet bombers, land-attack/anti-ship missile carriers, even standoff jammers like the proposed B-52J.

Vulcan, too.

[retro_seventies]

Absolutely!

Very exciting ideas in this thread, some that have been brushed upon a few times before, some new ones - all great food for thought though....

Certainly it is more likely that jet (inc turboprop) types will exhibit greater longevity of service, especially those where the cost per airframe would make a refit more profitable than a new type - this rather lends itself to "old school" bombers, and transport based types.  You need only look at the B-52, the Tu-95, the KC-135/707 family etc to see this is the case in "reality".

I forget  who it was on here that built a STUNNNING coin Beaufighter with parts of a Mohawk, but it was a great example of what i believe we are taking about in this thread,

So many types that could be used!

Hunters, sea hawks (would look great as night intruders with flir and brimstones), sea vixens with uprated engines, aerodynamic tweaks and new avionics...

So much potential for A-3 skywarriors - lots of lumps and bumps,  think of the loiter time with JDAM's - just waiting on station for the call.

Am i the only one that can imagine a re-engined gloster meteor doing the business with a new cockpit, power controls and a nose full of sensors?  Maybe a trent meteor, but with darts? astatzous?

DH venons, with pusher prop?  Again, nose full of sensors.  LARA from yesteryear? YUMMMY!

[Jeffry Fontaine]

snip>>As for older aircraft staying around, would turboprop conversion have kept some of these birds useful and around longer?:

snip>>DH Mosquito

The first thing that needs to be done in creating a modern aircraft from the original Mosquito design is to convert it from the predominately all wood construction to either all metal or a metal and composite design.  

Keeping in mind that the Mosquito suffered in harsh climates such as SEA where the glues used in construction of the aircraft debonded and major delamination of the aircraft set in and they were literally falling apart on the parking aprons.  If there was ever an opportunity to convert a conventional aircraft design to a composite structure, the Mosquito is a prime candidate due to the original design which lends itself well to being built with composite materials.  

Converting the Mosquito to  composite materials design is obviously the best approach since the original aircraft was produced from molds.  What better way to continue production than to keep the mold process and switch from laminated plywood to carbon-fiber composite materials?  

The weight recuctions would be very interesting and hopefully you would find yourself with an aircraft that weighs substantially less than the original design.  This significant weight reduction in the aircraft would provide a substantial increase in range, performance, and payload.  

Another benefit from this is that you would also create a more "eco-friendly" design which would keep the consrvationists at bay as they would be screeching about all of the poor trees being cut down to produce an airplane.  The conversion of the powerplants to turbine engines would also decrease the weight and increase performance which would also benefit the design.

[dy031101]

Hunters, sea hawks (would look great as night intruders with flir and brimstones), sea vixens with uprated engines, aerodynamic tweaks and new avionics...

A Delta-winged Hunter?  I remember seeing a line drawing on British Secret Projects book......

So much potential for A-3 skywarriors - lots of lumps and bumps,  think of the loiter time with JDAM's - just waiting on station for the call.

And A-5 Vigilante upgraded to carry Litening pod and guided bombs?