Avro CF-105 Arrow

[uk 75]

Seeing the wonderful Arrow pictures flagged up by TSR Joe reminded me that I had intended to pass on some thoughts based on recent books about UK what-if planes and also a book on the postwar RN.

It appears that the RAN were seriously considering an order for a UK CVA 01 carrier.  Had the RCN followed suit, such a ship could easily have operated Arrows.

Tony Buttler charts how the UK did consider the Arrow for its post-Lightning fighter but cost and timings with UK projects ruled it out.  Just imagine the situation if the UK and Canada had co-operated on a fighter Arrow.

RAF

Instead of Phantoms, the Arrow joins both the RN and RAF in the 60s as the standard fighter.  As TSR2 costs soar, the type is reserved as a medium strategic bomber and an updated Arrow is developed as a Buccaneer replacement.  By the 70s this plane is the "fighter-striker" envisaged in 1962.  It operates from three new carriers in the RN.

Canada

The Arrow provides Canada with a fighter and later NATO strike aircraft.  Canada joins Australia in ordering a new carrier from the UK.  This encourages velopment of Arrow versions which operate from the ship (name anyone?)

NATO

The Germans adopt the Arrow, but ask for a special short take off and landing version to be developed in the 60s.  It is in Luftwaffe service from the 60s to the present (no Starfighters, no Phantoms, no Tornados)

Other NATO countries follow Germany's lead.

USAF

Faced with problems with its F105 and F111 aircraft, and the failure of the F4 and F104 to win overseas orders, the USAF orders Arrows.

Warsaw Pact

Faced with a sudden NATO standardisation on the Arrow family, the USSR are not slow to commission its own Mikoyan and Sukhoi aircraft imitating the Arrow.

Would have been fun!

UK 75

[elmayerle]

The RAF did seriously consider an Arrow derivative for GOR.339 also, using a half-scale Blue Steel.  The main difference with the interceptor Arrow was a thickening of the inner wing skins according to write-ups I've seen.  Randall Whitcomb's book, Avro Aircraft and Cold War Aviation, has a nice artist's conception of this "Strike Arrow".  I can repost a copy of this if desired.

[Alvis 3.1]

Beign how similar in size weight and performance the Arrow and the Vigilante (RA-5) were, I would not forsee inordinate difficulties in getting a plane of that SIZE onto a carrier...the big drawback is the naturally high nose attitude upon landing a delta winged plane seems to have. However, if you take the wings and horizontal tail surfaces of the Viggie and atche to the Arrow, you would have both a viable carrier plane AND a decent strike (IE low level) plane. I did it using the HobbyCraft 1/72 Arrow and the Airfix 1/72 Vigilante, and darn if it didn't look right! You DO need to move the gear to the fuselage, but it's not a tough alteration. Trust me, I'm lazy...and it was easy!



Alvis 3.1

[The Rat]

Randall Whitcomb's book, Avro Aircraft and Cold War Aviation, has a nice artist's conception of this "Strike Arrow".  I can repost a copy of this if desired.

C'mon Evan, you ought to know that such a picture is highly desired around here!  ^_^  

[Captain Canada]

Arrows !



I had a USAF F-105 Arrow about half-way done, with about 16,000 lbs. of iron to drop, as UK75 said, to fill the gap where the 'real' 105 fell short in Vietnam. Someday I'll finish her !

Also, an SR-105.......my Navy bird is done. And like Alvis sez, if you could land a Vigilante, I'm sure you could mod an Arrow to do the same.

Cheers !

[Zen]

The RAF did seriously consider an Arrow derivative for GOR.339 also, using a half-scale Blue Steel. The main difference with the interceptor Arrow was a thickening of the inner wing skins according to write-ups I've seen. Randall Whitcomb's book, Avro Aircraft and Cold War Aviation, has a nice artist's conception of this "Strike Arrow". I can repost a copy of this if desired.

Thicker wing skins do not make a higher wing loading, and its a high wingloading that makes for a smooth ride at high speed at low level.

The lower the wing loading the more lift and responsiveness a aircraft have, and that means every change in air density, in pressure, every shift in wind, every thermal all effect the aircraft more.
Making the plane rise and fall in as it passess through what would seem dependant on speed as a hump' at low speed, a 'bump' at higher speed and when going fast as a jolt. The faster you go the more 'jolts' and since you will experience more and more especialy over bumpy ground (hills and whatnot) this will effect both the plane and the pilot. In the planes case stressing the airframe with small bending moments....lots of them, which eats into the airframe life as the continual bending fatigues the metal until it fails (rather like when you bend a paperclip a lot it will break). For the pilot the more severe and frequent the jolts the more damage the human body will recieve, from making life uncomfortable, to bruses, to detatched retinas and fractures in the bones, even brain damage (punch drunk like a boxer).
Thats why when you want to go fast a low level a high wing loading that makes your plane less responsive to all the atmospheric conditions is a necessity.

TSR.2 had a very high wingloading that made for a smooth ride (described with autostabilisation off as like being on a train with only major bumps registering despite doing mach 0.9 and more). Avro Canada's Arrow would be more like an instrument of torture and for pilot and aircraft safty be limited to slower than mach 0.8 or less.

IF armed with a half scale Blue Steal it would no better than a cheap Vulcan, with less range at altitude and a lower maximum warload.
It would be useful I don't doubt but it is not in the same league as the TSR.2 at low level for the strike mission.

And on Vigilantes.....they operated off of US CV's..the large ones with the longest of catapults, along with the longest of angled decks. Operation might have been possible on CVA-01 but I suspect it would be at the upper limit of the ships equipment to do so if at all.

In retrospect the half scale Blue Steal was probably of more importance since it could be used from a modified Buccaneer or Canberra.

Now don't get me wrong I like the Arrow but its not built for the TSR.2's mission. AS a recce fighter and high altitude bomber armed with stand off missiles it would ahve been better than the F4.

[elmayerle]

There may have been more than just a thicker wingskin involved, it's been a while since I looked at the write-up, but there was a definite structural beefup involved.  The nice thing about an Arrow is that the weapons pod concept wold make re-arming as quick as possible on hot turns.  The scaled Blue Steel was the weapon the RAF asked Avro Canada about, not necessarily the only weapon it could carry for that role.  IMHO, the ideal force would have a mix of the two to truly compound problems for The Other Guy ("TOG" ™).  Now, a commonality of systems adn equipment could go a long way toward reducing the cost of both.  For that matter, the production standard Iroquois was 100 in. shorter than the Olympus 320R in the TSR.2, but developed the same thrust; which would yield a weight savings in commonality right there.

[Zen]

Thicker skins and a generaly stronger structure are all to the good and do increase wing loading somewhat, but the size of the wing, its huge area that makes for such good lift and control at high altitudes is not ideal for low level flight.

The Arrow would be definately slower than a TSR.2 at low level, not because of a lack of thrust but because of the wing, and the needs of the pilot even if the structure could take it.

Iraquois...if I reccal correctly it used technology similar to Roll's RB106 and its bigger cousin the RB122, even related to them I think. However engine weight is not the be all and end all, s.f.c is far more interesting and it would be nice tohave some figures for the engine to compare with other engines.

It would certainly have been a potentialy quite flexible asset, at high speed and altitude only the biggest of SAM's would stand a chance of intercepting it.
In that kind of contition with stand off missiles it would make a potent strike asset, maybe with a focus of SEAD/DEAD punching out radar and SAM sites, making a safe corridor for slower aircraft to do the heavyweight work.
As a replacement for the PR Canberra's for example maybe with SLAR or optics.
As a CAP fighter out over the GIUK gap it would bear some compasion with the Mig31 and would have been so useful that its upgrade would be assured.

It would certainly have been better than the F4!
And it would have sold to quite a few nations.....if only in the recce configuration rather like the Mig25 did, as it makes a natural Canberra replacement.
I can see the likes of Australia maybe going for it, maybe India.

But it is not the TSR.2, not even close.

[elmayerle]

There was a conversion set in 1/72, and a similar one in 1/48, made for the RF-111C.  Mine's going to find its way onto an Arrow.  I don't know if the 1/72 one is still available, but I believe there's still a 1/48 one available.

I definitely intend to do at least one Arrow as an ADC bird bought after the F-108 was cancelled and fitted with a lot of the F-108's systems (that would take care of the radar/fire control/missiles concerns most handily).

[Captain Canada]

Everybody should use Arrows !

After the TSR.2 build, we should follow it up with the other great white protoype.......

Once we get our new shack, moving it's way significantly up the que ( hey, no line jumping ! ) will be my new tool HC Arrow ( thanks again, baz ! ) with all of jays bits. It'll be in camo ala CF-104 and Clunk, as a 1 AIR DIV bird.

[elmayerle]

There are also enough studied advanced derivatives to make for some interesting models.  The PS2 with the four ramjets, a lengthed fuselage, and canards being the most extreme (esp. in the ABM mode).  I've got a file of Randall Whitcomb's art of the RAF version in Strike configuration with a scaled down Blue Steel if anyone's interested.

[rallymodeller]

IMNSHO the Arrow probably would have eventually found its way into the same roles as the F-111 and TSR.2, namely recon and attack. I could see one with a canoe fairing off a Vigilante or with MER's on the wing pylons hauling Mk. 82's. The only thing that would need adaptation is the windscreen which is more suited for high-speed flight than attack.  

[elmayerle]

Wooksta,

As I remember it, the "Strike capable" Arrow had some design changes to make it more suitable/survivable in the strike role.  From what I've seen, these include a small deepening of the wing at the root and a thicker gauge of material in the skin.

I'm sure there were more but those are the main ones that stuck in my mind from when I read the data.

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

Germany, Australia, Saudi Arabia, probably France, and a few others.

I think that India (and why not Argentina?? ) could be add to this list, to replace old Canberra...
As you said, Australia, Germany but also, in my point of view, Iran, Egypte and Iraq could also be interrested by a big twin engine intereptor, instead of the F-4 or the Mig-25...

But I'm quite sure that France couldn't have chose the Arrow... The Mirage IV was going to enter in service and if French Air Force had some money to spend in a heavy interceptor, they probably go for a bigger version of the Mirage IV: I saw years ago the old 3-views plans of a Mirage IVB, a 50% bigger Mirage IV with two J-75 engines... A real monster with more than 50 tons of weight!!
A lighter interceptor version and a naval strike bird were also imagined based on the Mirage IV...



I always like those big twin-engine supersonic planes!! And "what-if" all those aircraft, the TR-2, the Mirage IVB, the Vigilante, the Arrow, this bigger version of F-111 etc. had had a real long life and some export market??
It could be interresting to see the Arrow in an internationnal contest against those aircraft

[elmayerle]

Most likely France would have a Mirage IVB with two Iroquois.  They did in fact approach the Canadian government about buying some, but this was before the Arrow got cancelled and they had to settle for J75s.  That was likely part of what killed that project.  That purchase had some other interesting effects, including P&W taking a minority interest in SNECMA for a while and SNECMA getting info on the TF30 which they developed in the TF104/304/306 family of engines.