Avro CF-105 Arrow

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

France might not have the Arrow but Belgium might have been intrested to replace it's Canucks. Thos days where the big spender days annyways.

I thought about that, but I think the Arrow is a too big fighter for such a little country...

Hey!!! What if a common NATO interceptor!! B)

The first fighter to operate with NATO roundels instead of nationals markings: Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherland and why not Denmark and/or West Germany could have join their airspace for the interception missions.

With Arrow based in Canada, Greenland, Belgium, Netherland, Iceland, Denmark and Italy, with  authorization of overflight France, Germany, United Kingdom, USA and west Austria, NATO could do a real air barrier.
Something like what the Mig-31 will do 20 years later...


And with the AWACS roundels available, such a whif model cold be, I think, easily done

[Alvis 3.1]

What if the CF-105 hadn't been cancelled?! Why, then we would be running the world of course! Back bacon for everybody!

If you want to see what's already been done, look no further than Alvis' page here.

Thanks for the mention!!
The idea of building a large number of HobbyCraft Arrows STILL gives me the twitching willies!!!


The Turkish one actually got into their IPMS Magazine, according to the contact guy, their "real" modellers got in a snit about it...frankly, considering how tatty it looked I was surprised how nobody got offended! (And considering the roundels were the wrong style and nobody noticed...lol)

As for who would have looked at it..assuming a government with guts to try to sell it and all the other variations that would have killed it in the end anyhow...
Germany
Japan
UK (Test a/c if nothing else for the Concorde program)
South Africa
Iran (For MiG 25 intercepts)
You know, I could see France buying some just to annoy the US/UK! As well, it could tie in with a Canadian buy of something like, oh say, Dassault Falcons? Atlantics for ASW role? DeGaulle and Trudeau, between those two doofii, ANYTHING would be possible!
Don't forget the Electronic Jamming variant, ya, I know it wasn't conceived except possibly outside of my deranged mind, but that swap-out rocket pack WAS designed for various capability..why not jamming?


Once again, I would like to bring up my "White Elephant" theory of aircraft cancellation. Ever notice an expensive aircraft program that gets the axe invariably involves an all white aircraft? Arrow, TSR-2, B-70, Lavi, with Concorde only hanging on because it was a signed contract with France...
My theory goes like this...When it come time for some faceless bean counter to decide whether to continue a program or not...if it is a white aircraft, and expensive, the expression "White Elephant" pops up, and since THAT has a negative connotation, the program is subconsciously given a death sentence, deserving or not...
The B-1 was cancelled when most of the prototypes WERE white, and oddly, after camouflaging one, the program was revived! Lesson here..if you have a plane that may be about to be cancelled, slap on some camo and/or patriotic flags..and presto! Instant contract!!


Alvis 3.1

[The Rat]

Once again, I would like to bring up my "White Elephant" theory of aircraft cancellation.

Sheer genius! The only trouble is, we don't know whether we want you as Prime Minister or Defence Minister.    

[Patrick H]

I thought about that, but I think the Arrow is a too big fighter for such a little country...

That's true but the Canuck was a big and expensive aircraft also. Back then there where no budget limitations so it could have happened, how unlikely it might have been.



patrick

[Alvis 3.1]

Once again, I would like to bring up my "White Elephant" theory of aircraft cancellation.

Sheer genius! The only trouble is, we don't know whether we want you as Prime Minister or Defence Minister.  

Oh, definitely Pee Emm for me, I could wreak WAY more havoc that way..and besides, I'd get to redecorate the PM's residence..anyone up for a model room at Sussex Drive???
I'd fill it with Arrow WHat-Ifs of course


Alvis 3.1

[Jschmus]

When Supertom was bandying the idea for a Soviet "Copycat" build, I had an idea to build one up as a VVS interceptor using the AAMs from my PM Su-21.  I intend for it to be a Polikarpov design (from a timeline where Stalin didn't take away Nikolai Nikolaevich's toys and give them to Mikoyan).

[Daryl J.]

Mirage IV heavy interceptor?    Oh yeah!


.....back to the Arrow....


Since it wasn't supposed to be a low level attack aircraft, that's exactly what the US government would have turned it into....a Strike Arrow.     Strengthen the wings, landing gear, and fuselage, tuck some JDAM's along the side and paint it gunship gray!      


Or----


High speed antisubmarine aircraft......Moose Jaw to the Pacific, drop the nuke-tipped torpedo, refuel again, and back to Sask.   Not bad for a morning's work prior to coffee break!

How about a record setter breaking Streak Eagle's time?



OK....off to bed...it's late.

Gentlemen,  
Daryl J.

[B777LR]

I dont see france, germany, US, Saudi arabia or Australia buying it. France, well, they had dassault, and they hardly ever buy aircraft from other countries if they can make one themselves. Germany, well they seemed to follow the US. The US stopped the arrow, so why would they buy them? Saudi Arabia seems just a bit too pro-US to me. Australia wouldnt possibly need such a plane. They had Phantoms until they got F111s, and had some Mirage 3s so i dont see why they should need the arrow.

[GTX]

B777LR,

Remember, the majority of Saudi Arabia's combat aircraft over the years haven't been US sourced, they've actually been UK sourced - Lightning Mk53, Tornado IDS & ADV, Hawk, and now apparently Typhoon (yes I know one could say that the Tornado and Typhoon are European, but they dealt with the UK when buying).  So it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to have them buy Canadian (possibly via the UK again).

In the case of Australia, the F-4s were really only a stop gap awaiting the F-111 - so they weren't really used as fighters per sae.  Though if a fully developed Arrow was available it may well have been an option for the RAAF instead of the Mirage III or purchased in conjunction as a long range interceptor - Australia's a big country remember.  Also remember that Australia has been (and still is often) scared of it's asian neighboors - always good fuel for defence purchases!

Regards,

Greg

[Archibald]

In fact when australia bought its F-111 in the 60's they also studied the TSR-2. Before that, the Vigilante had been elected as Canberra replacement, only because it was available quickly! The Mirage IV and Phantom were also tried by general Hancock in may 1963.
The Arrow was quite similar to the Mirage IV and Vigilante (albeit much powerfull and with an internal weapon bay) so Australia woud have probably studied it in 1963... had it been available!  

[dragon]

Mine!  Circa DESERT STORM.
CF-105D RF "Recon Arrow".  Up engined, canards, and photo capability.  "Retired" after DESERT STORM, however some were seen at NATO airbases during the Balkan Peacekeeping operations.  

[K5054NZ]

On the subject of the Great White Bird from the Great White North, anyone got some spare SAAF decals? Preferably lo-viz......

[Archibald]

Well I resurected this thread because of an old idea turning in my head...

We all know that the MiG-25 flew in 1964, the recon version entred service in 1969 and the fighter, in 1971. At the time, no fighter in the western world could intercept the MiG. Iran and Isreal tried with Phantom, in vain. that's why the F-14 and F-15 were made...

Now, just imagine the Arrow was saved in 1959. It entered service in 1962...

My theory is In 1969, when the MiG-25 entered service, only the Arrow could intercept it (because its performances were quite similar to those of the future F-15).
So Iran and Israel quickly bought a batch of CF-105 to Canada.  The Arrow become THE solution against the MiG-25, and orders started to grow for Avro Canada...
What do you think about that? 

What I don't understand with the CF-105 is the weapon system. Was it
- the MG-10 / Falcon of the F-106
- the ASTRA / Sparrow
- the AN/ASG-18/ AIM-47
Or another thing ?
In every case, would the Falcon AIM-4 (with the MG-10) been able to catch a MiG-25? 
I just love the AIM-47 / Arrow combo : the best fighter with the best weapon ystem, Ie the Tomcat of its time
The 318th FIS was based in Mc Chord AFB near Seattle  (not very sure of that)
On the other side of the frontier was Comox RCAF base... just imagine F-15 and Arrow facing each others...   

[GeorgeC]

Hello all.  Firstly, can I say how impressed I am by this discussion group.  I have been 'solo what-iffing' for years (probably since I moved straight from reading Thomas the Tank Engine onto the RAF Yearbook) and it is great to find a website with fellow sufferers to share my affliction!  I have even picked up a new tube of Squadron Putty after 'X' years away from plastic aircraft modelling - it cures a lot faster than 'green stuff' epoxy on 28mm figures!

On to detail then - I was considering what weapons system an RAF Arrow would have used this lunchtime so Archibald's post is very timely.  Assuming the Arrow replaced the Lightning in RAF service and given the investment in Firestreak and Red Top, would we have seen the weapons and their associated AI23/23B radars on Wattisham and Binbrook Arrows? I note the Wooksta's lovely 'Treble One' Arrow has wing mounted Red Tops.  Shame these IR missiles can't take advantage of the weapons bay.

Regards

GeorgeC  

[Hatchet]

Thanks backing my idea...what I don't understand with the CF-105 is the weapon system. Was it
- the MG-10 / Falcon of the F-106
- the ASTRA / Sparrow
- the AN/ASG-18/ AIM-47
Or another thing ?
In every case, would the Falcon AIM-4 (with the MG-10) been able to catch a MiG-25?  
I just love the AIM-47 / Arrow combo : the best fighter with the best weapon ystem, Ie the Tomcat of its time
The 318th FIS was based in Mc Chord AFB near Seattle  (not very sure of that)
On the other side of the frontier was Comox RCAF base... just imagine F-15 and Arrow facing each others...

I don't know what the electronics were, but according to a book I have it would have carried 3 Sparrows and 8 Falcons (4 each ir and radar). I very much doubt, that the Falcon would have been able to intercept a Foxbat.