Ju-87 Stuka

[jcf]

Time to 6,000 meters was almost unchanged, with the A6M5 Model 52 being slightly quicker, the A6M5 also had a faster level speed and higher ceiling. The redesigned wings of the A6M5 series also allowed higher dive speeds. The biggest change was a reduction in range, the degradation in maneuverability was not as great as expected and at low altitudes the Zero was a formidable opponent right up to the end of the war, which is one reason the US preferred combat at medium to high altitudes.

As to the Reisen in Luftwaffe service in 1940, two problems:
1) simply not enough aircraft in existence and no Model 21, the first IJN use was 15 pre-production A6M2 Model 11 sent to China on July 21, 1940. The aircraft was accepted for production at the end of July and the Model 11 drew their first blood September 13, 1940. In simple terms, during the period of the Battle of Britain (as our ranger friend pointed out) the Zero simply was not available.
The total IJN strength of A6M2s on December 7, 1941 was only 328 aircraft.
Production by both Mitsubishi and Nakajima between March 1939 and March 1942 amounted to 837 aircraft.

2)Entirely different tactical philosophies and strategic requirements.

Also do ya really think that the hierarchy of the then victorious Master Race circa 1940-41 would acknowledge that the 'little yellow men' had a better product? 

The He 112B series could possibly have been developed into a longer range escort aircraft more easily than the Zero could have been brought from Japan. The original 112 quite rightly lost the contest with the 109, but the later aircraft had potential.

Jon

[r16]

well , one of the risks of using single sources that they might not tell the whole story , as my point has got an effective rebuttal . Anyhow I looked at it and Bill Gunston gives the following when comparing A6M2  with '5 , the initial climb speed falls from 22.8 m/sec to 16 and the range from 3100 to 1900 km , in a single book. But the feeling of some Japanese pilots showed otherwise as actually one officer came up with vertically mounted 20mm as per German Schrage Music as it seemed no longer possible to get behind certain enemy types in a turning fight where they simply kept staying  in a neutral position . The idea was short lived though , a ground crewman was killed in an accidental discharge .

the only way to get a Zero in 1940  is to desire it badly in 1938 . Even Italians might have done it , if they had seriously worked on aeroengines .Though Germans were on the other hand , just as joncarrfarrelly hinted moving away from turning fight at the time . Doing a dogfighter wasn't "that" hard , although the Zero was  a really good example , Italians also had similar types .

and the Master Race could quickly claim that as they taught  the Japanese since many Germans were working over there , the Zero was theirs . Afterall Adolf Hitler declared he was half Jewish through his illegitimite father ; just to get support from rich industrialists in the early '30ies , who were mostly Jewish.

[Radish]

As for a Stuka on floats, I built a Revell(Hasegawa 1/48th) Ju-87B using Floats from a Rufe, as an Orkenwaffe Orke Sea Auk, with Zombie crew.
Remember that?

[Bryan H.]

A Stuka might make a good Nazi Skyraider (SANDY - COIN, attack & helo escort) analog.  As Stukas come back to the Luftwaffe's maintenance depots they get upgraded crew protection and additional wing hardpoints (for rockets, cluster bombs, gun pods, etc.), the wing guns go from 7.9 to ~.50cal MG or ~20mm cannons, they also get a more powerful & efficient engine and additional fuel.  The second crewman becomes useful as a navigator (for long range colonial missions) & a FAC observer for other fighter & attack types.  The gull wings & tall spatted gear will give her good clearance for rough & primitive airfield.

An upgraded Stuka would be good for maintaining security in Germany's distant colonial possessions - the large areas of the (former Soviet) Steppes and Africa.  Stuka's in these roles and environments might provide a good variety of camouflage schemes and markings.   

Bryan

[GTX]

the wing guns go from 7.9 to ~.50cal MG or ~20mm cannons

Well, the Ju 87 D-5 version onwards typically had the wing-mounted 7.92 mm MG 17 machine guns replaced by 20 mm MG 151 cannons.

Regards,

Greg

[Sauragnmon]

A contact of mine let me know that when they had the second burst of desire to bring the Graf Zepplin into service, they had actually planned on using the Stuka for both dive and torpedo bombing, instead of the Fi-167 for a torp bomber.  That would make for an interesting model, the Ju-87 with a torpedo.

The Ju-87 did have enough payload it could make a decent torpedo bomber, with that shackle it carried.  Combine that with the thoughts of a D4Y's engine perhaps, the extended nose, perhaps relocate the radiators, and you'd have a rather effective torpedo bomber perhaps?

Another thought I had was a BF-110 Torpedo bomber, which I'm going to do with one of my ship models, using the Schnellbomber series of 110.  I recall that one had similar payload capacity, who knows.

[sequoiaranger]

>The Ju-87 did have enough payload it could make a decent torpedo bomber, with that shackle it carried.  Combine that with the thoughts of a D4Y's engine perhaps, the extended nose, perhaps relocate the radiators, and you'd have a rather effective torpedo bomber perhaps?

Another thought I had was a BF-110 Torpedo bomber, which I'm going to do with one of my ship models, using the Schnellbomber series of 110.  I recall that one had similar payload capacity, who knows.<

Like These?

Ju-87/D4Y (F4U),

Bf-110/410/MC. 205,

Bf-162 "Jaguar" Schnellbomber

[GTX]

A contact of mine let me know that when they had the second burst of desire to bring the Graf Zepplin into service, they had actually planned on using the Stuka for both dive and torpedo bombing, instead of the Fi-167 for a torp bomber.  That would make for an interesting model, the Ju-87 with a torpedo.

The Ju-87 did have enough payload it could make a decent torpedo bomber, with that shackle it carried.  Combine that with the thoughts of a D4Y's engine perhaps, the extended nose, perhaps relocate the radiators, and you'd have a rather effective torpedo bomber perhaps?

Like this perhaps:




See here.

Regards,

Greg

[Sauragnmon]

I don't know... the D4Y/F4U/Stuka crossbreed leads me to images more of an actual sub hunter in the Axis Pacific that might have actually done a decent job.  I just don't see that undercarriage packing a torpedo.  Susie was a divebomber, Kate and Grace were the ladies who liked big long hard things to stick in unfriendly places on an enemy ship.

The Ju-87D-4 Turppenflieger would be a very visible example of a Stuka with a torpedo.  And it just looks so damn sexy.  The only problem would be, definately a new engine would have been needed later-war, and the idea of wing-radiators would allow the cooling to breathe, allow a bigger engine without much vertical change, allowing clearance of the torpedo package.

In the long stretch, it might have been a cool looking torpedo bomber, and the setup wouldn't have been without a benefit for divebombing as well, allowing long-nose Armor Piercing bombs to be carried on the trapeze shackle to skip out past the propeller.

[sequoiaranger]

>I don't know... the D4Y/F4U/Stuka crossbreed leads me to images...for divebombing as well, allowing long-nose Armor Piercing bombs to be carried on the trapeze shackle to skip out past the propeller.<

Yes, "my" carrier Stuka is meant to be a dive bomber (not meant to be a torpedo bomber, actually), with the small bomb-bay ala "Susie". The model has a "Susie" lower fuselage and a Stuka upper.

>I just don't see that undercarriage packing a torpedo.<

The undercarriage on my SeeStuka is that of the Corsair. I'm pretty sure even the aircraft-carrier Corsairs carried approx 2,000 lbs of ordnance (Korean War?), the same weight as a torpedo, so the landing gear should hold up. If you're talking about the original Stuka undercarriage, that, too supported heavy ordnance, but may not have held up as well on an arrested carrier landing. Dunno.

> Kate and Grace were the ladies who liked big long hard things...<

You know them, too? Our frat had them over for a party one night and.....

Anyway, don't let "us" deter you from envisioning and making your own SeeStuka--I just provided my example as an example/inspiration.

[Ian the Kiwi Herder]

How about a Ju87C+ (basically a navalised D) with folding short wings and wing 7.7's replaced with either 15mm or 20mm cannons (a la D-5/7), spats deleted (sorry Brian), provision for carrying the torp retained. Engine would be uprated, but fitted with a four-blade prop. A clear 'blown' pilots canopy to aid vis during carrier landings.

Could see them causing havoc around the Med in '43, flying off either the 'Deutschland' or the 'Adolf Hitler'....

You're thinking about it, aren't you !

Ian

[Sauragnmon]

I meant the actual under section of the fuselage, not the gear struts... a stuka's gears could have done the same, though a folding gear would have allowed higher speeds.  Maybe if they were in pods, that when closed up could double as emergency landing floats... With the reverse gull design, it would be workable, if you had something in the empennage to provide a third float to keep the tail above water...

I remember Kate, and this girl Val, they both went out with this guy named Zeke, they told me they had this really wild party down in Hawaii a long time ago... really wrecked up the place.

I wonder what a Jumo engined Stuka would look like... rip the engine off a 111 perhaps.  Or a DB-605.  Though for pacific ops, redesigning the Stukas to operate off Japanese engines might also be a good idea, to make maintenance a simpler affair.

[sequoiaranger]

>I wonder what a Jumo engined Stuka would look like... rip the engine off a 111 perhaps.<

Uh...EVERY German Stuka had a Jumo engine!! Or were you thinking of the radial radiator Jumos like on the Fw-190 D series?

>Though for pacific ops, redesigning the Stukas to operate off Japanese engines might also be a good idea, to make maintenance a simpler affair.<

For my whif, I had the simple expedient of having the Japanese license-build the Jumo 211, 213, and "Doppel-Jumo 611" (twinned engine like the DB 606) for their planes. I have an upcoming whif of an Aichi 119 ( He-119) torpedo-bomber for the Japanese using a Japanese-built Doppel-Jumo 611. It will look AWESOME!

[Sauragnmon]

Nah, I just had a blank moment on the Jumo engines.  It might be interesting to give a Stuka the engine off a Ki-61-II Hien though.  Give it that extended nose look, wing radiators.  Conversely, the radial out of the Ki-100, mounted on a 109T body.

The Japanese loved their Radials, I'm sure the Germans, with a few engineers, could have seriously boosted testing and production on some of their bigger carrier planes, like the A7M2.

Susy engine on a Stuka does make one think, there's a lot of interesting ideas to be had with the thoughts.

I had a rather insane idea of the Japanese building 111's modified for torpedo bombing service, carrying one or two Long Lances.  If the Japanese gave them an engine kick, that might have been a boost to the speed of the system, and thus delivery of the torpedo.

Who knows what you could come up with...

[sequoiaranger]

>I had a rather insane idea of the Japanese building 111's modified for torpedo bombing service...<

I made a "He-211" four-motor version (cutting up two He-111Z models for the constant-chord wing section with two engines apiece) with two aerial torpedoes attached, and ALMOST made it a Japanese version, but declined when I back-storied it to keep it German and save the Bismarck beyond reach of other Luftwaffe aircraft.

>carrying one or two Long Lances. <

The Long Lance torpedo was strictly a ship-launched weapon, weighing some 6,000 pounds (as opposed to 2,000 lbs for a regular air-launched variety) and powered by liquid oxygen. I'm not sure what all had to be done, and when, with the liquid oxygen, but I suspect that once the torp was loaded with the cold stuff, it couldn't sit on a plane for two hours in transit. Just a thought.

Lots of potential there!